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doodle001
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Joined: 27 Mar 2008
Posts: 8
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 Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: OFA Testing |
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We are looking at a puppy whose parents have the following:
Mom: OFA: Hips: "FAIR" Elbows: Normal
Dad: Penn Hip Rt. 5.5 Lt. 4.5
Shouldn't OFA be good -excellent?
Thanks for everyones help.
Lisa |
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Linda
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 2794
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Is the Mom a poodle?
Here is info from the OFA site, look what it says about the 'poodle'.
There are also 4 classes BELOW fair: Borderline, Mild, Moderate and Severe:
http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html
| Quote: | Fair
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Fair (Figure 3): Assigned where minor irregularities in the hip joint exist. The hip joint is wider than a good hip phenotype. This is due to the ball slightly slipping out of the socket causing a minor degree of joint incongruency. There may also be slight inward deviation of the weight-bearing surface of the socket (dorsal acetabular rim) causing the socket to appear slightly shallow (Figure 4). This can be a normal finding in some breeds however, such as the Chinese Shar Pei, Chow Chow, and Poodle. |
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Doodlesville
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Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1632
Location: VA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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OFA hip results are only as good as the Dr giving them
with that said, in the past year OFA Has changed how they rate hips on a poodle, so if the hips were sent in before a year ago, i would likely redo the xrays and resubmit
Fair is passing
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Maureen
Senior Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1936
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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OFA says that "FAIR" is potentially ok for breeding, altho I have preferred to use dogs that have a grading of GOOD or EXCELLENT. The fact of the matter is that dogs who have GOOD and EXCELLENT graded hips have thrown seriously dysplastic hips! So there's more to consider than the individual dog's grade.
Also, if you have a good health guarantee, and trust your breeder, this is worth more than an OFA grade.
I'm curious, do you know how to interpret the PennHip grade on the sire's hips? I would be interested in that, since I'm just starting to learn about PennHip. I've waited on purpose for more data to be gathered over the years, since PennHip uses a percentile grading.
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gsmagoo2
Senior Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: OFA Testing |
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| doodle001 wrote: | We are looking at a puppy whose parents have the following:
Mom: OFA: Hips: "FAIR" Elbows: Normal
Dad: Penn Hip Rt. 5.5 Lt. 4.5
Shouldn't OFA be good -excellent?
Thanks for everyones help.
Lisa |
I believe that the penn hip result is if the DI scored are much closer to .70, then that is when you really wouldn't want to breed that particular dog, also they give a percentage,,,,anything under 40%, I probably would not use to breed. I am currently using a stud who was given 40%, but the DI scores are not that bad. I'm breeding him to a female who scored at 60%, so my thinking is that using the lower score and breeding to a higher score, will give better results in the puppies..
Just my opinon!!
Trina |
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Maureen
Senior Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1936
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: OFA Testing |
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| gsmagoo2 wrote: |
I believe that the penn hip result is if the DI scored are much closer to .70, then that is when you really wouldn't want to breed that particular dog, also they give a percentage,,,,anything under 40%, I probably would not use to breed.
Trina |
thanks, Trina....what is "DI" ??
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gsmagoo2
Senior Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: OFA Testing |
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| Maureen wrote: | | gsmagoo2 wrote: |
I believe that the penn hip result is if the DI scored are much closer to .70, then that is when you really wouldn't want to breed that particular dog, also they give a percentage,,,,anything under 40%, I probably would not use to breed.
Trina |
thanks, Trina....what is "DI" ?? |
I'm so not good on how to word things so that they make sense...lol
so here is something that should help ...
Measuring Hip Joint Laxity
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A unique method for the measurement of hip joint laxity, using an index, was developed for the PennHIP compression and distraction views. The method is quantitative (i.e., it assigns a number to joint laxity) as opposed to being qualitative or subjective where an ordinal score is used (e.g. excellent, good, fair, etc.). the former is not as vulnerable to inter- and intra-observer errors commonly associated with subjective measurement systems.
The index method is calculated by superimposing precision-machined circle gauges on the cortical margins (rims) of the acetabulum and femoral heads (see example at left) to find the respective geometric centers. On the compression view (see below), if the joint is free of osteoarthritis, the centers of the acetabulum and femoral head should coincide indicating that the joint is indeed concentric. On the distraction view, the distractive force causes separation between the centers. The distance, d, between the centers is a measure of hip joint laxity. However, d also varies with dog size (larger dogs would likely have larger d's than smaller dogs), with age of the dog, and with magnification due to variation in hip-to-film distance. To circumvent these potential sources of variation, d is normalized with respect to all sizes of femoral heads and acetabula by dividing it by the radius of the femoral head, r. The resulting index, I = d/r, is a unitless number ranging from 0 to 1 (or more). The laxity index computed for the compression view is called a compression index (CI), likewise, the laxity index for the distraction view is called the distraction index (DI).
The distraction index (and the compression index) is a measurement of hip joint laxity. It does not allude to a passing or failing score. Hips with DIs on the distraction view that are close to 0 are considered to be tight, while DIs close to 1 are considered to be very loose. The DI is an indication of the "percent out of joint" that the femoral head is displaced from the acetabulum. For example, DI=0.58 means the femoral head comes out of the joint by 58%, DI=0.75, 75% out of joint (see schematic above), and so on. This also makes interpretation of the DI more intuitive: a hip with a DI=0.50 is twice as lax as a hip with a DI=0.25.
To obtain proper diagnostic radiographs, the musculature around the hip must be completely relaxed and so the dog must be under deep sedation or general anesthesia. Laxity as determined by the DI is therefore called passive hip laxity, as opposed to functional hip laxity which is the pathological form of hip laxity that occurs in dysplastic hips during weight bearing. (Clearly, functional hip laxity is of greater diagnostic interest, but there are presently no means to measure it.) |
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Jac
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 6136
Location: Northern CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Good info, good quesitons.
I agree with Maureen...
The PennHip results will depend on the breed tested. Not all dogs are in the same percentile. For instance a .50 in a Labradoodle will be a different percentile than a .50 in a Goldendoodle simply because there have not been so many Goldendoodles tested. PennHip compares breed scores to each other and so each reading would depend on the breed as to whether or not it is a good score.
The OFA, if done before 2 years of age, will be a preliminary result and should be retested at 2 years to verify.
So, in order to give much information, we'd really need more to go by...
Sorry.
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gsmagoo2
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Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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That is correct, the percentage that they fall under is determined by how many of that specific breed is in their database for comparison. But, the DI, I think is measured the same, regardless of the breed, and I think that any breed that scores closer to .70, is considered high risk for DJD.
That's how I understand it....if I'm incorrect about that, let me know, so that I can do further research as far as comparison with the OFA and Penn Hip.
Trina |
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Doodlesville
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Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1632
Location: VA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Personally i think OFA Is better then Penn,,for the simple fact that they are too many false readings with PennHipp, and OFA does require waiting until the dog is a adult 2yrs old Before! evaluating Hips and certifing
I wholeheartly believe that A dog must be mature (2yrs) in order to have Hips checked or certified, I have used OFA for many years, not only are Hip xrays only as good as the vet giving them but the radiologist reading them
I have had 2 i have redone sent back in and gotten better readings then withe the first ones i had submitted,
it cost me a arm and a leg to do it, but I had begun not holding much water in either, in the last 2 yrs i have started feeling much better about OFA ,,havent changed my mind about PennHipp
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Aussiedoodles, Goldendoodles & Labradoodles
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Jac
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 6136
Location: Northern CA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| gsmagoo2 wrote: | That is correct, the percentage that they fall under is determined by how many of that specific breed is in their database for comparison. But, the DI, I think is measured the same, regardless of the breed, and I think that any breed that scores closer to .70, is considered high risk for DJD.
That's how I understand it....if I'm incorrect about that, let me know, so that I can do further research as far as comparison with the OFA and Penn Hip.
Trina |
Trina, you are right about the DI and the score of .70 is generally not considered breedable.
PennHip also tests for displastic hips (I don't claim to understand what it all means) and if the dog is negative for displastic hips and has a score of .50 or lower, then I would consider the dog breedable.
Anything .50 or higher would require (in my opinion) serious thought about the other tests and the quality of the dog...so often people overlook great dogs because their hips are in the average range when all of the other important health and temperamental factors are excellent. So, I would not eliminate a breeder based solely on hip testing, but I would check into the reasons that they decided to continue to breed a dog with fair or lower hips.
I still favor PennHip over OFA, as you can see, good breeders differ in their opinion about which testing is most reliable. My main concern for OFA is that many breeders, anxious to take advantage of the earlier age for breeding, take a preliminary OFA score as definitive and will breed their dogs. But the OFA is merely that, a PRELIMINARY score. While I have heard of differences in testing with PennHip, the test is accepted among the professional vets as a viable and accurate measurement and it is accepted that a puppy at 4 months of age is able to be accurately measured. Some breeders do retest at 2 years and I have heard of improving scores (of course they would not report decreasing scores!) But I am still confident that the PennHip tests are more accurate because I believe that OFA is too subjective and can be manipulated easier than PennHip.
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gsmagoo2
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Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Jac wrote: | | gsmagoo2 wrote: | That is correct, the percentage that they fall under is determined by how many of that specific breed is in their database for comparison. But, the DI, I think is measured the same, regardless of the breed, and I think that any breed that scores closer to .70, is considered high risk for DJD.
That's how I understand it....if I'm incorrect about that, let me know, so that I can do further research as far as comparison with the OFA and Penn Hip.
Trina |
Trina, you are right about the DI and the score of .70 is generally not considered breedable.
PennHip also tests for displastic hips (I don't claim to understand what it all means) and if the dog is negative for displastic hips and has a score of .50 or lower, then I would consider the dog breedable.
Anything .50 or higher would require (in my opinion) serious thought about the other tests and the quality of the dog...so often people overlook great dogs because their hips are in the average range when all of the other important health and temperamental factors are excellent. So, I would not eliminate a breeder based solely on hip testing, but I would check into the reasons that they decided to continue to breed a dog with fair or lower hips.
I still favor PennHip over OFA, as you can see, good breeders differ in their opinion about which testing is most reliable. My main concern for OFA is that many breeders, anxious to take advantage of the earlier age for breeding, take a preliminary OFA score as definitive and will breed their dogs. But the OFA is merely that, a PRELIMINARY score. While I have heard of differences in testing with PennHip, the test is accepted among the professional vets as a viable and accurate measurement and it is accepted that a puppy at 4 months of age is able to be accurately measured. Some breeders do retest at 2 years and I have heard of improving scores (of course they would not report decreasing scores!) But I am still confident that the PennHip tests are more accurate because I believe that OFA is too subjective and can be manipulated easier than PennHip. |
I agree....and for now I feel more comfortable with the Penn Hip, also if the dog scores, not much over .50 and has no evidence of DJD or dysplasia, then providing all of the other tests are normal/negative, good temperament, I would consider breeding to a dog with higher scores than his. I would feel more comfortable with that breeding. Such as some will breed an OFA-fair to an OFA good or excellent. Also, OFA good to excellent. As there are excellent to excellent that still produce dysplastic puppies. But, as we all know that no matter how perfect all of their tests results are, we can still have puppies with health problems. As nothing is ever 100%.
Just my opinion!! |
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Jac
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Maureen
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Posts: 1936
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| gsmagoo2 wrote: |
Such as some will breed an OFA-fair to an OFA good or excellent. Also, OFA good to excellent. As there are excellent to excellent that still produce dysplastic puppies. But, as we all know that no matter how perfect all of their tests results are, we can still have puppies with health problems. As nothing is ever 100%.
Just my opinion!! |
You are on the right track, from, what I'm learning and my vet's opinion..... it's all a 'best guess' for all of us. I have neutered potential breeding dogs with a fair. And I know of a seriously dysplastic dog from 2 parents who were "Good" and "Excellent".
The fact is that there IS a genetic component to HD, and if a dog is Excellent but a Carrier, then he/she is worse than a dog with truly FAIR hips, and no other genetic markers.
I don't believe I would sell a puppy from a "Fair" and "Good" combination without full disclosure to another breeder. Even if the other breeder is willing to go for it, there's that hassle of following up on a guarantee later. But that's just me, after being on the receiving end of a dog with Borderline hips. I have a ton of respect for the breeder who sold me that girl, and wouldn't wish her position on anyone, with how she has had to follow up 2 yrs later.
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LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
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MaxandMe
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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now with PennHip you have the median average with DI
so now a Borzoi has a median avg of .19 !! extremely tight hips
goldendoodles median avg is .57 which is the 50% percentile
any number lower than .57 say a .45 then is in the 60%
BUT they also rule out HipDisplaysia at same time by saying NO DJD present which is very important
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