[dcloward]

Hi all,
I have read a ton on this site about 9 months ago and then I decided that I really wanted a Multi-gen and I wasn't ready to spend that much money. However, this morning I got a call from a neighbor telling me there was an ad in the local paper for a litter locally. We just came back from looking at them.

The Mother is a black poodle weighing about 35 lbs and the Father is an F1 black/silver about 65 pounds. The father does shed and the coat is different than almost any picture I have seen. It was neither wavy or curly - it was really long with a slight curl. Neither my wife or I found it attractive.

The litter is 11 pups (black and creme/apricot) with a few that were considerably more curly than the rest. We really like the look of a multi-gen and it is important to my wife that it does not shed. They were priced from $500 - $750. I have read all of the excellent advice here about selecting a breeder and all of the questions to ask. So, I have to decide if I take a risk with an F1b at $750 or pay $3000 for an Australian Multi-gen. I can't spend $3,000.

The questions I have and hope the experts here can help with are:

1) With 11 pups, the mother is already slowing down on her feedings and time she feeds. The owner is already supplementing with formula and giving them food. Is that too early at 3 weeks?

2) The owner was willing to let them go as early as 4 weeks or keep them as long as 8 weeks if we wanted. I have read that 6-8 weeks is the earliest and 8 weeks is preferable. As long as there are a few pups with the one we choose up until 6-8 weeks is that okay?

3) How should they verify with me that the Father doesn't have any hip or associated problems?

4) I have read that an F1b and curly hair doesn't always mean that it won't shed. But is there a higher confidence level and shedding is a rare exception?

5) Since we don't like the looks of the father, do we have a pretty good chance that the curlier pups will look more like a multi-gen and not the father?

6) No offense to poodle owners, but I don't want the LD to look like a poodle. Is a curly F1b more likely to look like a multi-gen and not like a poodle?

7) This is probably a myth, but I had been told by a vet before that a male's urine is less acidic and thus less likely to kill the grass. I also thought a male lifting his leg to urinate on the bushes or tree is better than on the grass. But, I read in some of these posts that a neutered male may no longer lift his leg. Any comments here?

Any help is greatly appreciated. For $750, if I do buy one of these pups, I want to lock up tonight the only curly creme male. Thanks for your help.

[dixiedi]

There are several red flags in your post about this breeder. First off is the price of 750.00. That is an awfully low price for an F1B. The breeders comment about letting the puppy go as early as 4 wks would tell me to run the other way. Any breeder that is willing to part with a puppy at 4 wks of age is not in the business for the betterment of the pup, that is for sure. There is no way a 4 wk old puppy should be sold at 4 wks of age.

It is not uncommon for the puppies to be eating "mush" at 3 wks of age along with momma's "milk bar".

There is no guarantee that an F1B will not shed, so if your wife is adamant about a non-shedding dog, you would be risking the happiness of the puppy and your wife.

The breeder should give you copies of any health testing he has done on the parents. If he can't provide you with a copy, RUN.

Is this breeder giving you any kind of health guarantee? You should get at least a 2 year guarantee on any genetic defects. Does the breeder say he will be there for the life of the puppy if you have any concerns or questions?

Please ask a lot of questions, there are a lot of good breeders out there but there are also a ton of bad ones that should be stopped.

Good luck.
_________________
Di & Archie

If you want to feel rich, just count all of the things you have that money can't buy...

[dcloward]

Thank you very much for the quick reply.

Yes, I was surprised by the price of $750 and thus my desire to move fast if this is a good dog. They know this is a low price and they don't look like a puppy mill.

I don't know that the sellers would call themselves "breeders" yet since this is their first litter. They had consulted multiple vets and other breeders on different issues, but obviously not on the age to let puppies go - they seemed to take my suggestion seriously that they shouldn't do it before 6 wks. They supposedly had turned one family away earlier that day and said that if we ever decided we didn't want or couldn't take care of the puppy they would take him back. Yes, they will give us a health guarantee.

I realize there is no guarantee that an F1b will not shed, but is there a guarantee that any Labradoodle will not shed? Is it rare for an F1b to shed? Does anyone know what the statistics are like for F1bs?

We really like the looks of the "wool coat" dogs on the Tegan Park website which is a long loose curl. Do you have any comments about any of my coat/looks questions?

Does anyone have any comments on my male/dog urine questions?

Thank you again for your time and quick reply.

[Jac]

Welcome!
At the risk of being much too blunt, I am going to flat out say it...Take your time!
I am sorry...but this has too many red flags for my comfort and there are a BUNCH of healthy, F1Bs that (although more money than this guy) might be within your price range. Please don't jump into this.
You have some very good and legitimate questions and right now I am not able to go into much detail with the answers...but will later on...(I'm just heading out the door to go out of town.)
But the bottom line is, you can pay more and get the dog you want, from a breeder you trust...or you can gamble on this puppy and possibly face a large vet bill if the puppy turns out to be from bad breeding stock...and this doesn't take into account the emotional distress for you and your family or the pain and suffering of the puppy.
There are lots of issues about testing, socialization, etc. that are too important to ignore...and I am sorry, but if a breeder wants to sell a puppy at 4 weeks of age...yikes! I suggest that you contact your vet and ask these questions...and see if you vet approves of a puppy being sold under these conditions...the vet may be okay with it...and if so, I am just being an overprotective puppy-mom!
I do wish you all the best...but this is such an important life altering decision for you and for the puppy...I hope that you will use caution.
_________________
jacque.bayley.lexie.chase.rosie.nitos.amelia.dupree.madison.sherwood.gerry www.backporchlabradoodles-jacque.blogspot.com www.backporchlabradoodles.com

[tojak]

Great advice Jac...I believe in our state vets our required to report puppies that breaders sell before 8weeks......A breeder could lose their liscense....
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Jackie, Nezzie and Zoey of Liberty, Missouri

[dixiedi]

Absolutely, I know in Kansas it is against the law to sell a puppy before 8 wks of age.
_________________
Di & Archie

If you want to feel rich, just count all of the things you have that money can't buy...

[Jac]

Hello again, I hope that my previous post wasn't too hasty...I have gone back over your questions and thought that I would try to answer them for you.

I am pasting them here and will respond following each question.

1) With 11 pups, the mother is already slowing down on her feedings and time she feeds. The owner is already supplementing with formula and giving them food. Is that too early at 3 weeks?

Three weeks is pretty young, but I supplement my puppies pretty early on too...trying to prepare them for weaning. It isn't because my girls run low on milk...I have one weaning mom running all over the house leaving white puddles everywhere she goes! So, this is really not troublesome for me.

2) The owner was willing to let them go as early as 4 weeks or keep them as long as 8 weeks if we wanted. I have read that 6-8 weeks is the earliest and 8 weeks is preferable. As long as there are a few pups with the one we choose up until 6-8 weeks is that okay?

In most states it is illegal to sell a puppy before it is 8 weeks of age. There are good reasons for this. It sounds like your breeder is willing to keep the puppies...but that they need some help and instruction regarding the care of puppies. I personally feel that they have been very irresponsible by having a pregnant female and not doing a crash course in how to raise them properly and what to do to ensure their health and well being...but that is now what you asked...so I will simply say that if they agree to keep the puppy longer, at least to the 8 week mark...I would also ask them to read up on the issue and find out why it is important to keep the mother and siblings together in this early stage.


3) How should they verify with me that the Father doesn't have any hip or associated problems?

They should have tested the parents BEFORE deciding to breed them...and only made the decision to breed after they received verification of good scores. If they did this, which I really doubt, then they will have written results that you can see...but if you want to know what the tests mean and what results are good ones, you will need to do a little studying too...I will be happy to give you links if you would like.

4) I have read that an F1b and curly hair doesn't always mean that it won't shed. But is there a higher confidence level and shedding is a rare exception?

This is true. You have a better chance of good coat quality in an F1B because you have 75% Poodle and 25% Lab. Shedding is not really a rare exception...most dogs do shed a little...the higher generation you get in a Labradoodle, the better your chance of low shedding. Also, all puppies will blow their puppy coat near the first birthday (1 year).

5) Since we don't like the looks of the father, do we have a pretty good chance that the curlier pups will look more like a multi-gen and not the father?

I am not sure if the father is the Labradoodle or not, I assume it is...and that you are referring to the typical F1 Labradoodle. A curly coat will probably make the puppy grow into more of the look you want. Usually a puppy with a curly coat, keeps the nice coat texture as it grows. But you won't get a multigen look. That is a pretty long process, getting the look of a multigen...and it sometimes happens in the F1B, but usually an F1B looks slightly different...however...not all multigens look like multigens!

6) No offense to poodle owners, but I don't want the LD to look like a poodle. Is a curly F1b more likely to look like a multi-gen and not like a poodle?

Actually, if you let the Poodle's coat grow, it looks like a multigen! I have had more people ask me if I am selling my chocolate Labradoodle...but I only have a chocolate Poodle! I just don't clip his coat that often and he NEVER gets a Poodle cut.

The Poodle "look" that most people dislike is due to the grooming...the cut and the brushing...if you let their coat grow and brush it, but not to "fuzz" it out...it looks very much like what you have in mind as a multigen coat.

7) This is probably a myth, but I had been told by a vet before that a male's urine is less acidic and thus less likely to kill the grass. I also thought a male lifting his leg to urinate on the bushes or tree is better than on the grass. But, I read in some of these posts that a neutered male may no longer lift his leg. Any comments here?

I don't have an answer regarding the acid content...but many dogs will lift their leg...and it still goes on the grass and not the tree. Neutering doesn't really make a difference there, I don't believe. Many male dogs, even intact ones, will squat to urinate. Some ADD lifting their legs, but still squat...it is an individual thing, not something that you can make a good guess at, I don't believe.

-------

My original answer to you was pretty opinionated, and I apologize if I made you feel uncomfortable with a decision you are making. I reacted based on my belief system...and I stand by what I said, but I don't want you to think that I (or anyone here) would judge you if you decide to go forward and get this puppy...you will still find supportive and friendly people here, so please let us know when you get your puppy...and I wish you only the best.
_________________
jacque.bayley.lexie.chase.rosie.nitos.amelia.dupree.madison.sherwood.gerry www.backporchlabradoodles-jacque.blogspot.com www.backporchlabradoodles.com

[Chesterpal]

So what was the decision???

[dcloward]

Hi all,
Thank you for the replies and the sincere interest. On Sunday, we called the owners and said we would take the curly haired creme male. They said they had called their vet and agreed they needed to keep the puppies until 6-8 weeks for socialization. They are obviously learning, but they do seem to sincerely care that they do the right thing. As i said, this is their first litter.

My biggest concern still is whether we will get the look we want with an F1b. Rutland Farms claims with their multi-gens that they can predict with 98% accuracy now the looks of the dog. However, I can't afford to pay $3,000. And if I pay $1,500 for an F1b from a more experienced breeder, I have to ask if I will get any better predictability?

I tried to insert some photos of the looks I want to avoid and the look I like, but I couldn't copy and paste here and clicking on the image button didn't work. Sorry.
Thanks,
Dave[/img][/url]

[Jac]

Hi Dave, congratulations!
Don't worry too much about the looks...our girls were not really what I wanted...I too wanted a multigen...but bought F1s instead and although they were not what I had my heart set on, I adore them now and I can't imagine that they would be any more beautiful!
Like your other relationships in life, sometimes beauty isn't always what it seems on the outside. And these dogs are so danged loveable...you will soon be gushing over the great dog you were fortunate enough to get!
I am very happy that your breeder has decided to wait.
Maybe you could refer your breeder to this site...if they are learning, there isn't a better place to find answers, in my book!
_________________
jacque.bayley.lexie.chase.rosie.nitos.amelia.dupree.madison.sherwood.gerry www.backporchlabradoodles-jacque.blogspot.com www.backporchlabradoodles.com

[dcloward]

Thanks Jac.

I know we will love the dog and that is why I was I was so preoccupied with the looks because if it wasn't the look we wanted, we obviously wouldn't let the dog go because we would love it anyway. So, I hoped we would make the right choice before we fell in love with a dog.

I already have told them about this site and they were very interested for me to send them the link.

Thanks again,
Dave

[dixiedi]

Jac is so right (as always), you will love your new puppy no matter what he turns out to look like. Of course, we all know he is going to be so darn cute and those doodle eyes are going to captivate you from the get go

Jac, I admire your way with words, you truly have a knack for communicating with people. You never cease to amaze me, I truly hope someday that our paths will cross and we can have an all night talk fest. Wow, wouldn't that be a blast We'd invite Linda, Maureen, LeeAnn and whoever else is close enough to come. One big Doodle Slumber Party
_________________
Di & Archie

If you want to feel rich, just count all of the things you have that money can't buy...

[Jac]

Diane, thank you so much for the kind compliment! Wow... thank you.

About the slumber party...well, I will be free to plan my life after July, so watch out, I just might head your way!! (I'd LOVE that...and would enjoy meeting and chatting with you all so much!) Maureen...I'll pick you up on the way!
_________________
jacque.bayley.lexie.chase.rosie.nitos.amelia.dupree.madison.sherwood.gerry www.backporchlabradoodles-jacque.blogspot.com www.backporchlabradoodles.com

[dixiedi]

You have got a standing invitation!!! Both of you!!
_________________
Di & Archie

If you want to feel rich, just count all of the things you have that money can't buy...

[Maureen]

Friends, my bag is packed....come and get me!!


Dave, I have a pic of a "woolly" f1b on my site...sorry I'm being a little lazy and not transferring the picture to photobucket and back to here, but if you look at "lil bit" and see her coat you might get an idea.

I hope your breeders read more on this site as they do clearly have a lot to learn and they could learn from some fine breeders here who would be patient with them. And 8wks is really minimal for the sake of transferring loving able-to-bond puppies to other people for the money they are charging. The weeks #6-8 are the most work, most cleanup but most rewarding in what they get from each other, the adult dogs in the home and what they take from the people that are in their lives at that point. The laws on the books in the various states are for the benefit of ALL! I'm not allowed to be licensed in my town (long story) but I will tell anyone I can that it's worth the wait, yet I know the work involved in keeping a pupppy past 6wks. It's not just about the weaning!
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~Maureen
LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
www.LabradoodleRanch.com