Business question

Tink · Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: Business question

I've met someone who is very knowledgeable about genetics, has bred labs for many years, and is quite interested in Labradoodles. He has a couple of gorgeous 2-3 yr old dams, is retiring his male, and I'm working on a contract where he'd keep his dams, but I'd be able to raise doodles out of them. His dogs have top-notch bloodlines but he's in agreement that hybrids are the way to go.

He prefers not to do the care and hassle of delivery or raising the pups to salable age, so that would be up to me, and I would do the marketing and so on. I'm trying to find out what others have done in our situation. He prefers not to sell his dams outright yet I think he and his dogs could be a real asset for me.

He does OFA and Cerf, DNA; and is a professor in chemistry who has a fascination for genetics. How much more perfect a partner could I ask for?

Does anyone have any suggestions or similar situations I could use to get us started?
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Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

Lucky Me · Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject:

Interesting....what does he get out of it & what do you get out of it with all the work of raising the puppies?
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"Happiness is a warm puppy with wet kisses"

Tink · Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject:

Judi, that's one of the questions we're trying to decide on. What IS reasonable compensation based on what we're both bringing to the table? Obviously most of the work would be mine, but when not in heat or with pups, he would have his females and the related expenses and upkeep. I have the marketing know-how which he says is his stumbling block... I have the website that's already established. It's very difficult to put a dollar value on each of these things, yet we need to.

That's why I was hoping for a voice of experience to help guide us to at least get us started.
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Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

Lucky Me · Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject:

I really don't know where to begin on that one...that's so much work on your part.
With parrots, hand-feeders get 1 bird for every 3 they feed...if that makes any sense. Confused

That is with the owner giving the hand-feeders the babies at about 2 weeks old & supplying all the food.
I am assuming that you are using Moses too? Different species & if you use Moses..I would not know where to begin.
Sorry
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"Happiness is a warm puppy with wet kisses"

Tink · Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject:

Yes, I'll provide the stud, (Chip, since Moses is no longer available)
I'd have the litters born and raised to 8 weeks of age here.
I'll do the marketing, vet care, and work involved in each litter.

He'd provide the girls which are already tested... we'd both keep full ownership of the dogs we bring to the table and any related expenses in maintaining them.

I guess it's similar to using an outside stud, only I'd be using the females.
The difference of course is that Id have his females here for about 10 weeks out of each year... one for breeding, one prior to delivery, and 8 for the pups to mature.

His knowledge of genetics and experience with labs of course has value... My ability to do the marketing and whelping that he doesn't want to do are a major plus to him.

So we go round and round and round... lol
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Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

Jac · Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject:

Hi Tink, it sounds to me like you are considering co-ownership and I have a contract that I used with someone when we had a stud dog (which is very different that females, of course) and the dog was with a guardian home...so I don't think it would be too helpful.
What I would suggest is that you discuss what each of you want. Yes, you will have the biggest part of the expenses with whelping and marketing but if he is doing the testing and paying for regular vet care, food, toys, etc. then I think that it is a wash...you are each contributing a lot to the endeavor.
I think I would treat it like a guardian situation, only because of the dual ownership, you will need to consider things like, what if the puppies don't make it...want if the dam dies (you will want to contract that you are not liable to him if that happens under your care) and just think of all possibilities...not just the good things, because the good things are the easy parts. You just split the income. You would factor in the value of your stud and all identifiable expenses, and have him do the same and try to split the profit in porportion to the contribution.
Still, a contract is so important because things WILL happen...and you want to know how you will handle it when it does.
Good luck!
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Jac · Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject:

One more thing, regularly...before breeding, have the females and male tested for Brucellosis...every time! It is such an easy test and such a risk if the dogs contract it.
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Tink · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:42 am Post subject:

Thanks Jac, that's my thinking exactly! Luckily it seems what I lack, he has and vice versa; so it's being able to plan ahead in a way that is fair and comfortable for us both.

I cringe to think what it would cost me to buy dams of the quality that his are and to have them tested; add to that his knowledge of Labs, genetics, and such and you're offering a nice neat package! If I'd have been searching for an opportunity like this, I'd have had quite a time finding it if I'd have been able to at all.

Luckily for me, he seems to appreciate the value of what I can offer as well. He admits he's not a people-person; is a scientist first and foremost. Business, marketing, the daily chores of raising a litter, and dealing with potential buyers leaves him cold. While they're the things I enjoy!

It doesn't seem that defining our roles will be much of a struggle; if we can settle on liability, division of profit (if any) and so on.
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www.tinkerdoodle.net
Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

Maureen · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:51 am Post subject:

gee, Tink, it sounds like a win/win all around!
I mean, yes, you do the sales/work of whelping but you have NONE of the care, feeding, and even cost of this quality of a dog. How many litters would you want, or would he agree to? I didn't see that mentioned so that's a question I'd ask.

Like Jacque said, it sounds like a guardian arrangement. Best wishes!
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~Maureen
LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
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Napathedoodle · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject:

Even though I'm not a breeder, I'd also say it sounds like a guardian agreement. Some breeders have an agreement where money is exchanged from breeder to guardian per litter born. Perhaps that the route you'd go?
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Kristen and Napa-doodle, the chocolate doodle!

Tink · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject:

Thanks ladies!
I've been wrecking my brain trying to think of all the different aspects we might need to discuss and spell out in a contract. Since one of the dogs just had a litter, (My new puppies dam) there's only one other that we might co-breed with this year yet. So we're not planning to rush into this and might well put off any breeding till early next spring so we aren't looking at winter litters.

I'm really excited to have this opportunity, so I certainly want to be careful to make it a positive and enduring deal for us both.
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www.tinkerdoodle.net
Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

Maureen · Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject:

Make sure you get these Labs tested by Optigen for the DNA status on progressive rod-cone degeneration. It causees blindness at 5+yrs old and is carried thru labs and Miniature poodles. And it's not done by Pawsitive ID any longer. The Labs could have one of three status levels: affected, carrier, clear. And it's huge to breed an affected to a carrier, or worse, an affected to an affected!

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~Maureen
LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
www.LabradoodleRanch.com

MaxandMe · Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject:

quick note re: prcd and pawsitive id who applied for a patent a while back and are hoping by fall to be doing PRCD testing again.

Optigen may cost more but also send results faster too.

Good luck TINK Very Happy

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lieverdmom · Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject:

cocoandjane · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject:

Deb makes some good points...
Are all expenses related to breeding your responsibility? Brucellosis testing, extra food, vet visits as necessary.....? Does he want a puppy from each litter to keep, or to sell? I would decide upon how many litters each would have before retiring.
I think it is great he has the genetic knowledge, but what does that really supply you with? You already have the stud you intend to use and he already has the dams. Maybe I'm missing something....?

Sound doable, and sort like a guardianship....or co-owner deal, as far as the puppies are concerned. You do have to put a dollar amount on each thing and then see where you are.
Cool

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Jane

Coco and Abby, too!!