Picking studs...

Lucky Me · Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: Picking studs...

We have a male F1B puppy left that we really like. He is smart, mello and has a more of a spiral wool coat (he isn't silky like chenile). The only thing is that he is black, and what I have managed to dig up researching on this site is that black is not desired. His grandpa is black, but has produced a champion dark red dog. His father(red Apricot) on the poodle side comes from famous red lines, his grampa being Dk Red. I know that he would carry the the red/cream gene but of course will DNA test. He also comes from very prolific and genetically healthy lines. Dad is still studding litters of 11 at 10 yrs. old & grandpa litters this big at 11 yrs old. One other issue would be his size. He is now 29 lbs. at 4 months old. I suspect he will go 65-75 lbs.
Am I a total fool in considering him as a breeder? Of course I will do all the other testing but should I just forget it and fix him?
HELP!!!
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Judi,Tuesday& Marley(and little Reba too!)
"Happiness is a warm puppy with wet kisses"

gracielou · Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:48 am Post subject:

Well to me it depends on your breeding program, blacks are harder for some to sell. I think in the 1st 2 generations they are the hardest also if you produce a whole litter of blacks. If your producing 3 or 4 out of ten then that might not be so bad. I would only consider him if he has the cream gene which is also like you said apricot, red and those variations. If he carried Brown gene that would be nice it is doubtful but would be nice.

As far as his size well there again depends on your program are you breeding large dogs or are you trying to produce smaller dogs?

One good thing is he might produce some awesome reds and that is a very good thing!
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Valley Center, KS
http://www.4pawspuppies.com

Lucky Me · Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject:

Thanks for your response gracielou....
After reading my question I guess I rambled...
I guess I should rephrase my question also, for the benifit of others since this where many, like myself, go to get my questions answered.
I understand that temperment is the number one consideration in a stud.
If someone was to look for a stud in general, what would be the ideal coat for an F1B, fleece or wool, what is ideal?
Color, I get the impression that ideally you would have a stud that is cream/red(and carries the brown gene) or brown (& carries the Cream/red gene).
And then there is size...is smaller the most popular?
(When selling my puppies there were people that had no problem with 65-75 lbs. and then there people who said that that was too big for them personally. I don't know that my dogs will reach that size, but I was honest with them that it was a possibility as both parents were good sized and I didn't want any puppies getting re-homed on that note.)
What would be considered the ideal stud?
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Judi,Tuesday& Marley(and little Reba too!)
"Happiness is a warm puppy with wet kisses"

Tink · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject:

Oh wow Judi, I missed this question earlier... I wish more would have responded as I'd love opinions too!

I am picking up a new potential future stud in a few days. He's got a very mellow personality, and great temperament... so that's covered.
He's a standard poodle and comes from some good sized dogs... which I was considering getting away from till I met him.
He's chocolate, out of a chocolate dam and an apricot sire. There were several chocolates in the litter along with apricots, creams and a couple reds.

I am planning to breed Canada (black lab) and Moses (apricot SP) again and hope to keep at least one nice female out of the litter for future breeding. I also kept breeding rights to Snuggles, the black f1 pup out of this same pair from the last litter. So am hoping to gradually build a base of breeders to do f1bs from my own dogs.
Color wise, this pair produced 3 blacks (one is turning silver) 3 white, 3 apricot, 3 cream and a single red pup (which was still born). So since I want to be able to have a nice variety of colors in each litter, I'm hoping to repeat this by saving females out and introducing them to this new chocolate male later.

Obviously I'm a newbie in labradoodles compared to many here, so claim no authority on the subject. Yet am a strong believer in the "if you do what you've always done you'll get what you've always gotten" school of thought. Since I LIKE what I got, but would like to add some chocolate to the mix, I figure this is worth a try.

I am rather independent, so am going to breed what I like and hope others like them as well. It seems everyone has their own idea of "ideal" so there's no way you're going to really satisfy all tastes anyway. In my mind, if you like what you have then you've succeeded.
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Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

MaxandMe · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject:

silly question here: why not pay $50 and get DNA test done for color and disease?
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Lucky Me · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject:

Hi Tink! This whole stud thing is getting more and more complicated! I'm hoping for a big dash of LUCK thrown in there!
My goal is for those Dark reds and Dark browns!! and that darned "rufus" gene!
I just PM'd Annamarie this morning...I used to have a really dark brown female toy and a red-apricot male out out of a dark red male. From what I know now, I would have never produced a brown out of them, but I believe I had the makings for a Dark red, as I did produce a cream along with blacks and a Phantom. Only thing is that with toys, you only produce 2-4 pups per litter. With these larger litters, you have better odds of producing what it is you are aiming for when you put all the right genetics together! Then again....Annamarie talks about some things crossing out others. It would be nice if they DNA tested for more than just the BB's & the EE's.
And yes...my thinker has been sore too lately with this genetic stuff!!!
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Judi,Tuesday& Marley(and little Reba too!)
"Happiness is a warm puppy with wet kisses"

Maureen · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject:

hi, I love seeing others ramble on in their posts! Helps me feel at home. Wink

I have a black girl that I breed to yellow (ee with all its variations) or brown. The genetic stability that a dominantly-colored dog gives is really immeasurable, according to professional breeders I've learned from. So, if your F1b black boy came from a red/apricot (ee) male, he definitely carries that color. And if you bred him to another ee dog, you should get 50/50 black and the yellow variations. Voila! Great results!

The trouble happens when people breed their dog without knowing what the mate carries, or what their dog carries, especially with regards to chocolate.

If you are thinking of using this black boy for breeding, then Annmarie's suggestion of the dna test is a good one for starting out wtih the whole testing process.

I hope this helps!
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~Maureen
LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
www.LabradoodleRanch.com

Tink · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject:

Where is DNA color testing being done for $50?
I've been checking into it online and find $78... which if I do 3 or 4 adds up quickly!
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www.tinkerdoodle.net
Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

Lucky Me · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject:

Is it me or has this forum been wild with info lately???? I LOVE it!!
Here Tink is the thread about PAWSitive ID, it just seems to be too good to be true!!!
http://labradoodle-dogs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6073

I sent my males DNA off to them over a week ago so I have at least one of the 3 wks of waiting under my belt Very Happy

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Judi,Tuesday& Marley(and little Reba too!)
"Happiness is a warm puppy with wet kisses"

Tink · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject:

Thanks Judi, I will check into it.
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Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

Maureen · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject:

Tink, or Judi, you've already had puppies with your dogs.....email me sometime and I might be able to help you with the color thing. HOEWEVER there is DNA info in those Pawsitive tests that are valuable beyond color, like the PRA info on their eyes, and vWD too.
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~Maureen
LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
www.LabradoodleRanch.com

Tink · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:38 am Post subject:

Thanks Maureen. The test at that price and including that many different things, seems a great bargain and way to go. I'd like to get it done a couple of the dogs I plan to breed.

Now since I'm UNeducated in all this stuff, if I decide to keep back 2 females for future breeding out of my next litter... I'd still need to get the test done on both of them even though they're full sisters. I understand that part...

But if I do the parents and they both test negative for PRA and vWD aren't you pretty safe that the pups will as well? Unless mom or dad show as having it or being carriers that is...
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Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

Maureen · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject:

Yes, Tink the parentage proves a puppy as clear, so the parent's testing is valuable for future generations. In that case, the DNA testing is good for having a DNA profile on the specific dogs, and of course their color genetics

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~Maureen
LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
www.LabradoodleRanch.com

Tink · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject:

Cool... thanks!
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Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)

Tink · Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject:

Wooooooohoooooooo!
I have gotten the go-ahead from hubby and will be DNA testing my dogs in the next few weeks. I'm so excited to find out all I can about them so I know what I'm doing putting them together and can offer them as free of certain genetic issues.

**Fingers crossed** that the results are as I hope them to be! I'm scared that something I don't want might show up too, but if it's there I really do need to know.
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Hickory, Ava, Hana, Misty, and Chip (happy master of his Harem)