coats

Angie · Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2006 Posts: 295

in all of your experience, what kind of coat will a F2 have, from F1 to F1 labradoodle, I hope to have a curly coat
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angie

lauren46 · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject:

I thought an F2 was a F1 x F1B

gracielou · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject:

Most breeders don't breed F1 to F1 but I have heard that you get what some call a split litter half will look more like the Poodle and the others will look more like Labs. Maureen had a litter like this maybe she can give a better idea for you.
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dixiedi · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject:

Hi Lauren, I believe an F2 can be several different combinations. F1xF1 breeding, F1xF1B breeding and a multi-genxF1B. All of these combinations are considered an F2. It can get so confusing Smile

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Di & Archie

If you want to feel rich, just count all of the things you have that money can't buy...

Sarah · Junior Member Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 56 Location: UK.

I think in the UK we probably work out generations slightly differently, as over here we would cross two F1's to get an F2. Does get confusing Rolling Eyes

Maureen · Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject:

Hi, I've learned a lot from another breeder who definitely researches genetics, but the "F" terms are set by the scientific community who have worked on hybrids from corn to onions, to any two breeds or species crossing or breeding.

F1 is the first cross: 50/50 so to speak
F1b is a f1 x parent breed = f1b (75/25 of the 2 breeds)
F2 might refer to a 2nd generation, and f1b is a 2nd generation hybrid but not a true F2, as defined by the genetic labeling.
F2 in the truest or stricted terms is F1 x F1 offspring.

I heard that a 3rd generation doodle, from F1 x F1b or F1b x F1b is called an F2b? I think I would just call it a 3rd generation, and explain the parentage to our clients. Smile

(anyone glazed over yet? Shocked

)

Laypeople use the term F2 to refer to F1b but it is misleading in its literal terminology.

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~Maureen
LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
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Maureen · Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject:

Hi again, we did have an F2 litter once- that's an F1 x F1 batch of babies. As happens in a genetic cross, we got a VERY Labby puppy on one end of the spectrum and an extremely poodley pup on the other end. The Labby puppy (or puppies) that you get in this cross is not very valuable but the ones in the middle or at the poodley side of the breeding are adorable. Have I posted "Sully" since the gallery got fixed? If not I'll post him, he's a really pretty F2. But his brother Riley looks exactly like a full-blooded Lab. Very Happy

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~Maureen
LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
www.LabradoodleRanch.com

lauren46 · Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:11 am Post subject:

Confused!!! I will get this soon! Rolling Eyes

Maureen · Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:18 am Post subject:

Unfortunately I agree that this whole thing IS and CAN BE confusing, but the importance is to know the heritage more than the LABEL. Don't you agree?

I am not sure, but I wonder if breeders somewhere in the Doodle breeding history have tried CALLING different generations something with or without knowing what the TRUE hybrid language would call that hybrid or cross-breeding? I'm not sure. I've seen these types of things hashed out on breeder forums where someone knew what the correct scientific label is, and what someone else THINKS a doodle generation is called.

In other words (*in my opinion), there shouldn't be any difference between the UK and the US and anyone about what an F1xF1 would be called, or an F1 x F1b. But there seems to be people who are uninformed about the "rules" of what a hybrid generation is called have been using whatever labels they want to.
Embarassed

So that just adds to the confusion!

When (God willing) we have f1xf1b puppies, or f1b x f1b puppies I intend to EXPLAIN to people what that generation is, whether or not I find out what the "correct" label is. Very Happy

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~Maureen
LabradoodleRanch@aol.com
www.LabradoodleRanch.com

lauren46 · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:23 am Post subject:

I agree because say an f1 x f1 is bred and someone calls it an f2 and the buyer thinks an f1b x f1 is an f2 and that is what they want, then they get the wrong thing. just my opinion

Sarah · Junior Member Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 56 Location: UK.

Confused:

is an f1 x f1b an f2b?

Jac · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject:

Okay, you have me confused! LOL
But, I do believe, Sarah, that the B is only put in when you actually use a parent breed to back cross, so if you are breeding an F1 and an F1B you are not backcrossing to the parent breed. That's about all I know about the scheme...everyone keeps tweeking it too, and just when I think I might have it, it changes again!
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Maureen · Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:17 am Post subject:

Jac · Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:47 am Post subject:

Very, very well said, Maureen! Very Happy

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K9Summer · Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:19 am Post subject:

I took a genetics class at Purdue University my freshman year in college. You guys are right- these terms have been used long before dog breeding! We used corn and other plants. In true genetics- an F1 x F1 = F2. Jac is right about the b meaning a backcross to the parent generation (in our case, a poodle). So if you breed an F1B x F1, it is not an F2B because you're not backcrossing, even though that's what pretty much every doodle breeder calls it. If I have reviewed my information correctly, a true F2B would be an F1B bred back to a poodle. Breeding an F1B to an F1 just doesn't really happen in anything other than doodles, which is why I couldn't find any information about it in my genetics books. Same with breeding F1B to F1B- that just doesn't normally happen because it is pointless in genetic testing. I guess people are going to call them whatever they want! I wish it were less confusing! They are second generation, but I guess all you breeders are just going to have to explain it!

Bridget, Summer, and Duke