How many litters is too many?

[judycarl2001]

Happy Holidays everyone! I was looking at the website for the breeder where we got Molly. Molly was from the second litter they had with her parents. Since we got her, and she turned a year old in November they had another litter and now I see they are expecting another in January. Does this seem like too much? What's the norm for breeders? Should their dogs be pregnant twice in one year? Maybe I'm just naive about breeding so I thought you guys with experience could fill me in! Thanks.....Judy

[SilverLoka]

In my opinion two litters a year is too much. But say if you only have 3 litters total in a dogs life and then she's spayed then maybe it can be healthier to have 3 litters close to each other than to drag it out over many years.

Isn't it legal in the US for the bitch to be a 12 months at the time of her first litter?

In Sweden it's 18 months which I also think is to early, 2 years is a more appropriate age I think, then both the mental and physical development is complete. At 12 months a dog is still a baby, I think having a litter that early has more health issues than having litters too close to each other.

In both cases I can't help to think that it's just for the money!

[M&Tdoodles]

Just my opinion as a breeder of Labradodles, it really depends on the "health" and quality of nutrition the Dam is provided. Females that are considered for breeding in our program & many breeders that advertise here, have expensive testing, such as hips,eyes,DNA profiles,regular Vet visits, Cardiac testing, blood panels,thyroid testing...this adds up for quality breeders, the window of time to breed a dog is short. One should not breed before the 3rd heat, the dog is too immature to care for her pups. You wouldnt want to have a large litter of pups to have the mom refuse to feed them, or trample them,sit on them smother them, you also expect the female to be mature to teach the pups the many things they need to be taught in the first 8 weeks of life.
There are many variables to consider when breeding. Just to say you shouldn't breed twice a year is wrong. If you are providing really healthy nutritious meals, there is no reason why you couldn't breed twice in one year. The decision to not breed successively would be how she was able to handle the last litter of pups, and maybe what size of litter she had, and or the health of the pups that were born.
We would stop if it took her more than 12 hours to deliver her pups, if her milk supply wasn't adequate to supply her pups for the first 4 weeks, if there were congenital illness in any of the pups, if she had mastitis more than once with 2 separate litters , the list goes on...If she had trouble with delivery then that would be a red flag to us to not continue using her for breeding.
There are so many variables to consider, there is no way to say you shouldn't do this ,or you shouldn't do that, it really depends on her health, the quality of pups health also once delivered. There rate of growth, there temperaments , one has to take into consideration so many variables when considering breeding and the timing.
We have bred back to back without health issues, but we treated her like a queen feeding her many home cooked meals, placing an effort into our breeding practices with thought for her health as always been our primary consideration.
Breeding from age 2 - 5 is considered an average age for quality breeding. We do not start until close to age 2 and will stop breeding once age 6, but will stop if issues arise along the way.
Not all breeders have high standards of practice true, but to categorize or assume a breeder as being bad to have successive litters is wrong also.

[lindamarie]

Thank you, Martha and Tom!
Although I am not a breeder, I have been interested in this info myself!

[SilverLoka]

The uterus needs time to recover aswell, in my opinion one heat in between litters if it's not once a year and I don't think it's healthy for the bitch to have 2 litters a year from 2-6 years, thats up to 100 puppies in a lifetime.
And I don't really think that it's for the dogs best interest to take as many litters. According to vets the bitch needs a years rest between puppies, for the body to completley recover back to normal.

But I'm curious about the reason for taking litters twice a year....If you would share?

[SilverLoka]

And I forgot to mention that in this "new breed" that's not yet a approved breed in any country, it can be dangerous for future breedeing to take too many litters on a single bitch or stud. In the future it can be difficult to find a good bitch or stud that has no relations with your own breeding material and that can easily cause breeding depression and inbreeding witch can be a problem later to get rid of.

Because if this and many other aspects I don'r believe that the Labradoodle have a chans of making it to approved breed standars....sorry, but there are too many non serious breeders.

If all of us had our own breedeing counsel and that produced pedigrees after approved breedings after evaluated dogs maybe the situation would be different?

And there are atleast one other existing breed that is too similar tou are Labradoodle...one is the ancestor of the poodle, the Barbet (google it), it's alittle bigger but has many of the same qualities as the Doodle.

[LabyLabradoodle]

Wow!, A labradoodle can make 100 litters in her lifetime? That is a lot!

[SilverLoka]

Not a 100 litters! A hundred puppies! BIG difference

[Lucky Me]

From the Doodble Breeders Forum, from someone who just came back from a repro conference......
"It was reinterated that back to back cycles or cycle suppression is best for uterine health and that as long as a bitch is healthy and has recovered then skipping a heat cycle does more harm to the uturus than good. If a heat cycle is being skipped it should be suppressed (with medication) until such time (up to 2 years) as you are ready to breed and of course bitches should be retired as early as possible."
"1.5 - 5 years are a bitches peak fertily years","Large breed reproductive peak is about 5 years of age, small breeds do not reach their peak unitl 8-10 years of age, though there was lots of discussion, the general consensus was that younger is better but every breed and every bitch will be different"
A lot of vets say two on and then rest a cycle.......

[Jac]

Hi, I am just checking in after a year off from this forum but I had to comment that Judi is correct.

It is not uncommon (nor unhealthy) to have females breed back to back SO LONG AS the dog has excellent health and has had no trouble with her prior delivery. I often breed back to back and then skip a cycle.

The comment above, "...in this "new breed" that's not yet a approved breed in any country, it can be dangerous for future breedeing to take too many litters on a single bitch or stud. In the future it can be difficult to find a good bitch or stud that has no relations with your own breeding material and that can easily cause breeding depression and inbreeding witch can be a problem later to get rid of."

While I think I understand what you are thinking, I must say that your focus is too much on registration (approval) with a "club" and not with the best interests of the breed. Serious and ethical Doodle breeders ALWAYS take into consideration the health of mother and litter as well as responsible placement. True, there are irresponsible breeders everywhere, in all breeds (including registered, accepted ones) but this comment is, well, an uneducated statement. Sorry.

[SilverLoka]

Well, the fact still is that it is not yet a breed it is just a mix.

Many good things comes with an approval from a club, that is health programs and pedigrees that can't be skipped and may take away alot of the "breeding for money" type breeders.

I doubt that the most part of doodle breeders check for both the labradors and the poodles genetic problems.

I must say that many of you act like the doodle is allready a recognised breed and that make you sound even more like a "mix" breeder...sorry.

So why sis no one fighting for it to become a recognised breed?

[KingstonTodd]

Originally Posted by SilverLoka

I doubt that the most part of doodle breeders check for both the labradors and the poodles genetic problems.

I must say that many of you act like the doodle is allready a recognised breed and that make you sound even more like a "mix" breeder...sorry.

So why sis no one fighting for it to become a recognised breed?

I am not sure if you are directing this at Jac, but she is one of the most respected breeders in the US and operates a NON-PROFIT breeding program.

Great breeders like Jac DO test for all the genetic disease that are present in Labs AND poodles, and do physical tests for diseases that have a genetic component but there is not yet a DNA test for.

Getting doodles recognized by the AKC is not a priority because it means nothing. There is a breed club for labradoodles and one for goldendoodles that breeders can join to get all the guidance and professional mentoring that pure bred breed clubs offer. AKC registration is just a list of who gave birth to who and that's it. No requirement for health testing or proof of producing well socialized healthy puppies. Breeding for show has done terrible things for the health of many pure breeds. Google the documentary "Pedigree dogs exposed".

[Jac]

Hi Silver Loka, I am not sure where your information is coming from but it would be a good idea to do some serious research before painting all Doodle breeders with the same broad stroke brush.
As to your comment about Doodles being a "breed" that is recognized, you are really showing an unfortunate prejudice against this great dog breed. Yes, they ARE a breed. In fact, if you take the word at its face, a "breed" is simply "off spring", so Doodles are a breed.
If you only conside a "breed" to be valuable and worth producing if it is accepted by the AKC, then that is your right but you should realize that the AKC is nothing more than a social club where people pay their dues.
As an example, I purchased an AKC registered Poodle but the breeder filed false documents with the AKC. I submitted DNA and the AKC verified, through their own testing, that I was correct in the parentage of my dog. Did they change the registration? No. Why? Because the "fraudulent" breeder had to agree to it.
Makes me wonder just how many false records are out there.
In fact, given the ease of DNA testing, you would think that an organization so well respected as the AKC would demand DNA to be submitted and matched with every registered litter. They do not. Why? Certainly not to protect the quality of the breed. Likely to protect their financial interests.
So, if you want to hold fast to the premise that only AKC registered dogs are valuable, that is your choice. Just don't disparge good breeders who are doing their best to create a healthy, sound and excellent dog.

[lindamarie]

Great "hearing" you, Jac! Your advice and comments are always looked forward to.
Personally, I don't want my doodle to be an AKC registered dog. In fact, I'm happy the President chose a PWD over a LD. Why? Because I think people would not only raise the price of doodles, but they would be overbred as everyone would want one.
I already had a Springer Spaniel when Bush was president, so I would get ticked when people made reference to me having the same dog as what was in the WH.
So.......that's my answer to why I ,personally, am not "fighting, to have these dogs recognized. I don't want them to be!

Lastly, I'm not entirely sure why Silver Loka is here to stir the pot regarding these dogs. It is rather irritating and I think Jac gave a great response!

[SilverLoka]

I am not directing any of this at anyone in here! And surley bot at anyone in particular!

So sorry if any of you took this as critique against them!

I have myself had a doodle litter where all the test where done prehand etc etc and I have nothing against the breeders that do all the work necessary.

And I might add that I live in Sweden and here the swedish kennel club is alot more strict and it's very much looked down upon to breed doodles and well it's another thing all togheter I think to mix breeds here than it is in the US.

But I never said that ALL the doodle breeders breeds for money I said that probably the most part does, and then I'm thinking world wide and not just in the US.

The market for mixed breeds is growing in Sweden and it's considered not serious to breed and buy mixed. Just because there isn't an organisation that controls those type of breeders, so they can sell the dogs for how much they want and do exactly nothing to earn that money if you think about the helath testing etc.

So again I wasn't thinking about the breeders that breed Doodles just as any other breed but those who just rides along on the work of others. That don't test their animals and that doesn't care who the parents of the puppies are just to make money. There are alot more to breeding than just testing.

So SORRY again if anyone took any of my words personally because it was meant in the most general way as possible!