timing of rewards- good article

kirama · 01-26-2010, 12:53 PM

http://positively.com/2010/01/25/be-...at-you-reward/

**KingstonTodd** · 01-26-2010, 02:27 PM

Good article, it is particularily interesting to us right now in training our dogs not to bark at passers by when they are playing in the yard without us. By barking, and then us coming out to tell them to stop, they get the reward of us coming outside. What a great result for a bark!

How should we train not to bark? When we are already outside with them, they are much less likely to bark anyway and do respond to a no comand so they know the rule inessence but dont follow it if we are not there.

Jac · 01-26-2010, 04:00 PM

Oh, yes...this link is going straight to my husband!
Thanks! It is so true...this is why we are instructed not to touch a dog that is jumping, or to interact with them...they want attention, we give it, they are rewarded. But, as Todd says, some behavior is hard to correct without some sort of contact, like barking.
I have a lot of resources, I'll try to find something good for barking...

kirama · 01-26-2010, 06:33 PM

Beck is in an 'adolescent' dog training class right now and we talked about barking last saturday. The trainer recommends 2 things, you can use both of these or just one, the instructor said ideally if you teach #1 you shouldn't need to do the exercise in #2.

1. Teach the dog to bark on command, you can bark at the dog to stimulate this, or you can wait until the dog barks- whatever works. Use a command like 'bark' and reward the behavior. Once the dog will reliably bark on command, give them the command 'bark' the second after they bark, before they bark again say 'quiet' and reward him for not barking a second time. The dog will quickly learn the difference, just like you can lure your dog from a sit to a down and back to a sit, this works much the same way. The ultimate goal is to be able to order 'bark' then follow by 'quiet' and get 100% compliance.

2. Take the dog to a situation where it will probably bark. Get the dog to check in with you (make eye contact) by giving him treats, do this for 2 or 3 minutes, just treat each time he looks at you. No need to give any commands, just wait for him to look at you and give him a treat, keep repeating this until he is spending a lot of time looking at you. Then and only then begin walking toward the stimuli. Walk very slowly stand still if you need to. If you are too close and the dog starts barking don't say anything just turn around with the dog and move back until he stops. Every time the dog looks at you treat and praise. The reward is only to be given when the dog checks in with you without being told to do so. Keep moving closer, if the dog 'checks out' (starts to focus on anything other than you) turn around quickly with the dog and walk back several feet and try again. The goal is to teach the dog that you and your treats are far more important than what he wants to bark at, when he is consistently checking in with you, he can't be as focused on the barking stimuli, so it will reduce his stress/excitement level to the point where he can learn to ignore it. If you do this consistently the dog should be able to be right next to what it wants to bark at whether you are there or not.

Jac · 01-26-2010, 08:13 PM

Well, while I have heard of each of these techniques and agree that they can work...when you are with the dog...what abou those times when the dog is in the yard barking at neighbors? Isn't your attention to the dog, when you come out to quiet the dog, a reward? You obviously can't be there to do either of these things and that is my question. How do you stop a dog from barking when you are not there?

My dogs are GREAT to stop barking, even in a pack, whenever I call out to them...and they even stop barking and "go to the house" ...just because I say so. No reward at all...but if I am not right there to stop the barking, it will continue until THEY decide to stop.

I would love to be able to leave them in the yard when I go to town or something, but I can't because I fear that they will bark and upset the neighbors...I want to teach them not to bark at times like this...but I don't think that there is a way, quite honestly.

kirama · 01-26-2010, 08:26 PM

I don't really have that problem with my dogs- they aren't really barkers. But the trainer said that if you do the exercise that I outlined, with rewarding them for focusing on you rather than on the stimuli, then after they quit reacting to the stimuli when you are there, that will carry over to when you are not there, they will be de-sensitized to it. She swears that it works, even on dogs who have bark-fests with neighbor dogs through a fence.

Jac · 01-26-2010, 08:30 PM

Hmmm, well it is certainly worth a try!

I have some dogs that don't bark at all...and then others who think that it is their job to warn us that someone has the NERVE to be driving on the back road by our house. *sigh* Might be too late for my guys, but I will try ti.

kirama · 01-26-2010, 09:10 PM

The trainer said it's never too late, it just takes longer with an older dog than a puppy, she said the 'tough cases' are the fear barkers, but that fortunately most dogs just bark out of excitement not fear. Jac if you try it with your dogs- let me know how it goes so I can report back to the trainer.

I guess the other thing to consider is whether or not the dogs barking outside is disturbing enough to even bother doing anything about it?

Jac · 01-27-2010, 12:03 AM

I do think that it bothers me more than anyone...I have asked my neighbors and I've given them my number so that they can call me if ever my dogs bother them...and, frankly, mine bark far less than some dogs in the neighborhood...but still, it does bother me...

I think that my biggest challenge, for the method mentioned, is that my dogs are together...and no matter how much I get them to focus on me to desenthisize (sp?) them, the reactions from the neighbor dogs or others in our pack will create the problem.

That is the only time I have trouble with their barking...when the neighbor's dog challenges them or when one of my dogs barks and runs after something...then the others follow. *sigh* I actually feel pretty lucky that they are as good as they are...still, when people visit, it can be a real circus! I get them calmed down, they stop barking and the visitor has the nerve to "say" something...and they start to bark again! Ugh!

kirama · 01-27-2010, 12:51 AM

If the neighbors aren't calling the cops I would let them bark..it sounds like normal barking not anything obsessive. I think the trainer was more concerned with situations where a dog will just bark incessantly at something like a dog in an adjacent yard, you know- non-stop for hours and hours. When Beck sees a dog he likes he lets out this single very loud bark, I guess it's his way of saying 'hello', I've never felt any need to correct him for it though. He doesn't really bark at very much else, he's such a dear he loves absolutely every person and every animal he encounters and he is curious about the other things dogs bark at like rabbits, dear and trucks driving past, he just cocks his head and wags his tail (ain't I lucky?)

Jac · 01-27-2010, 01:35 AM

Yes, you ARE lucky!

My dogs are barking when people visit, but their tails are wagging like crazy...they are very social too, but I have enough dogs that people (understandably) are a bit nervous...

My dogs do love to watch what is going on. They will stand along the fence and just watch...

You gotta love a Doodle!

01-26-2010, 12:53 PM	#1 (permalink)
kirama Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 858	timing of rewards- good article http://positively.com/2010/01/25/be-...at-you-reward/ __________________

01-26-2010, 02:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
KingstonTodd Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,005	Re: timing of rewards- good article Good article, it is particularily interesting to us right now in training our dogs not to bark at passers by when they are playing in the yard without us. By barking, and then us coming out to tell them to stop, they get the reward of us coming outside. What a great result for a bark! How should we train not to bark? When we are already outside with them, they are much less likely to bark anyway and do respond to a no comand so they know the rule inessence but dont follow it if we are not there.

01-26-2010, 04:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: timing of rewards- good article Oh, yes...this link is going straight to my husband! Thanks! It is so true...this is why we are instructed not to touch a dog that is jumping, or to interact with them...they want attention, we give it, they are rewarded. But, as Todd says, some behavior is hard to correct without some sort of contact, like barking. I have a lot of resources, I'll try to find something good for barking...

01-26-2010, 06:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
kirama Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 858	Re: timing of rewards- good article Beck is in an 'adolescent' dog training class right now and we talked about barking last saturday. The trainer recommends 2 things, you can use both of these or just one, the instructor said ideally if you teach #1 you shouldn't need to do the exercise in #2. 1. Teach the dog to bark on command, you can bark at the dog to stimulate this, or you can wait until the dog barks- whatever works. Use a command like 'bark' and reward the behavior. Once the dog will reliably bark on command, give them the command 'bark' the second after they bark, before they bark again say 'quiet' and reward him for not barking a second time. The dog will quickly learn the difference, just like you can lure your dog from a sit to a down and back to a sit, this works much the same way. The ultimate goal is to be able to order 'bark' then follow by 'quiet' and get 100% compliance. 2. Take the dog to a situation where it will probably bark. Get the dog to check in with you (make eye contact) by giving him treats, do this for 2 or 3 minutes, just treat each time he looks at you. No need to give any commands, just wait for him to look at you and give him a treat, keep repeating this until he is spending a lot of time looking at you. Then and only then begin walking toward the stimuli. Walk very slowly stand still if you need to. If you are too close and the dog starts barking don't say anything just turn around with the dog and move back until he stops. Every time the dog looks at you treat and praise. The reward is only to be given when the dog checks in with you without being told to do so. Keep moving closer, if the dog 'checks out' (starts to focus on anything other than you) turn around quickly with the dog and walk back several feet and try again. The goal is to teach the dog that you and your treats are far more important than what he wants to bark at, when he is consistently checking in with you, he can't be as focused on the barking stimuli, so it will reduce his stress/excitement level to the point where he can learn to ignore it. If you do this consistently the dog should be able to be right next to what it wants to bark at whether you are there or not. __________________

01-26-2010, 08:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: timing of rewards- good article Well, while I have heard of each of these techniques and agree that they can work...when you are with the dog...what abou those times when the dog is in the yard barking at neighbors? Isn't your attention to the dog, when you come out to quiet the dog, a reward? You obviously can't be there to do either of these things and that is my question. How do you stop a dog from barking when you are not there? My dogs are GREAT to stop barking, even in a pack, whenever I call out to them...and they even stop barking and "go to the house" ...just because I say so. No reward at all...but if I am not right there to stop the barking, it will continue until THEY decide to stop. I would love to be able to leave them in the yard when I go to town or something, but I can't because I fear that they will bark and upset the neighbors...I want to teach them not to bark at times like this...but I don't think that there is a way, quite honestly.

01-26-2010, 08:26 PM	#6 (permalink)
kirama Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 858	Re: timing of rewards- good article I don't really have that problem with my dogs- they aren't really barkers. But the trainer said that if you do the exercise that I outlined, with rewarding them for focusing on you rather than on the stimuli, then after they quit reacting to the stimuli when you are there, that will carry over to when you are not there, they will be de-sensitized to it. She swears that it works, even on dogs who have bark-fests with neighbor dogs through a fence. __________________

01-26-2010, 08:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: timing of rewards- good article Hmmm, well it is certainly worth a try! I have some dogs that don't bark at all...and then others who think that it is their job to warn us that someone has the NERVE to be driving on the back road by our house. sigh Might be too late for my guys, but I will try ti.

01-26-2010, 09:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
kirama Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 858	Re: timing of rewards- good article The trainer said it's never too late, it just takes longer with an older dog than a puppy, she said the 'tough cases' are the fear barkers, but that fortunately most dogs just bark out of excitement not fear. Jac if you try it with your dogs- let me know how it goes so I can report back to the trainer. I guess the other thing to consider is whether or not the dogs barking outside is disturbing enough to even bother doing anything about it? __________________

01-27-2010, 12:03 AM	#9 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: timing of rewards- good article I do think that it bothers me more than anyone...I have asked my neighbors and I've given them my number so that they can call me if ever my dogs bother them...and, frankly, mine bark far less than some dogs in the neighborhood...but still, it does bother me... I think that my biggest challenge, for the method mentioned, is that my dogs are together...and no matter how much I get them to focus on me to desenthisize (sp?) them, the reactions from the neighbor dogs or others in our pack will create the problem. That is the only time I have trouble with their barking...when the neighbor's dog challenges them or when one of my dogs barks and runs after something...then the others follow. sigh I actually feel pretty lucky that they are as good as they are...still, when people visit, it can be a real circus! I get them calmed down, they stop barking and the visitor has the nerve to "say" something...and they start to bark again! Ugh!

01-27-2010, 12:51 AM	#10 (permalink)
kirama Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 858	Re: timing of rewards- good article If the neighbors aren't calling the cops I would let them bark..it sounds like normal barking not anything obsessive. I think the trainer was more concerned with situations where a dog will just bark incessantly at something like a dog in an adjacent yard, you know- non-stop for hours and hours. When Beck sees a dog he likes he lets out this single very loud bark, I guess it's his way of saying 'hello', I've never felt any need to correct him for it though. He doesn't really bark at very much else, he's such a dear he loves absolutely every person and every animal he encounters and he is curious about the other things dogs bark at like rabbits, dear and trucks driving past, he just cocks his head and wags his tail (ain't I lucky?) __________________

01-27-2010, 01:35 AM	#11 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: timing of rewards- good article Yes, you ARE lucky! My dogs are barking when people visit, but their tails are wagging like crazy...they are very social too, but I have enough dogs that people (understandably) are a bit nervous... My dogs do love to watch what is going on. They will stand along the fence and just watch... You gotta love a Doodle!

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