Dog Training Methods, kindness...not alpha-roll

[Jac]

At first I, along with everyone else, thought that these methods were remarkable, I bought the books, videos, etc. I even swore by the prong collar as a training method...but, I am now telling you that I was wrong.
Not every dog is the same and most Doodles are sensitive, loving and gentle...I have learned, with all of my dogs' loving patience, that our Doodles respond far better to love and respect than to anger, pain or fear.
There may be dogs that don't respond to conventional training and the owner will believe that other, more strict, measures are required. Before you go there, please contact an animal behavioralist to see what is really going on...

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[kirama]

thank you so much for saying that. I have had dogs all my life, and what truly works is understanding how a dog thinks and not pretending it's a 'furry person' who can be made to feel guilty or ashamed, or will actually 'learn something' through harsh treatment. Dog's don't have a conscience, and they very much live in the moment.

You can train a dog one of two ways:
1. Make the dog afraid to repeat the behavior by using harsh leash corrections, choke collars or physically punishing the dog. The downside with this approach is the dog learns what it needs to do to avoid being hurt, there is no guarantee that the dog will control it's behavior when you aren't around because the behavior was suppressed, not extinguished.
2. Reward based training - The reward can be a treat, or a hug, but the idea is that you shape behavior by rewarding what is desirable, and using the treat as a means of reinforcing the behavior. The dog learns that doing certain things means that they will get a reward, with repetition, the behavior becomes imprinted and becomes reliable even though you no longer need to reinforce it with a treat every time.

[KingstonTodd]

Doods are a different type of canine personality than a GSD, for example, and trianing methods must be different. My doods will do ANYTHING if they think I have a treat in my hand. Positive praise and a treat every now and then to keep them wanting, seems to work the best for us. And CONSISTENCY of rules of appropriate behaviour are a must.

[MaxandMe]

JAC what a GREAT POST!!!

and peanut is living proof .....people have giggled for over 2years the way she is trained with a soft sweet No no peanut honey
she is super sensitive and also with Max praise with a big hug goes a long ways with him to-date as well.

This is why i went back to the trainers that do the Vollhard Positive Training method with my doodles.
and when they couldn't catch on or say were too puppyish, that was okay.
i remember one week, i decided to go back to basics so i could praise my doodles on what they Could do and just waited
for them to mature a bit more before moving onwards.

I also like that my doodles LOVE being hugged daily........Doodles it seems the kindest gesture of love and praise goes such a long ways
with them.

NOW the prong collar.......I have used it in past with much success but only for short periods of time with Max as he was 88lbs and if
he pulled in a parking lot he could be hit and/or i could easily be in pain for 3 weeks or more with my nerve injury.
HOWEVER NOW in public places when training him no prong collar, no special collar just his regular collar, hand signals
and a big hug/praise when done. While training though i swear he knows what a smile means: praise.

I find doodles to have much more sensitive nature than certain other breeds and you're right each one is unique but all seem to respond
to Positive loving training that can also teach alpha as well. I am lucky i don't need food treats to train max and peanut about 90% of the time.

AS i raised my kids when toddlers with postive reinforcement and so much praise for the smallest tasks and/or acts of kindness
and i can also say listening.......well why not raise doodles in the same manner.
Doodles are not human kids but raising them as if they were seems to go a long ways........Doodles being such people dogs
makes sense what you posted jac

[lindamarie]

AW! What a GREAT thread!!!
There is not much better than praise, hugs and LOVE!!

I do have to say, however, that in our training, we did have to use the German prong collar pictured below.



This collar LOOKs awful, right? Not if it is used correctly!
It serves as a mother dogs bite on the back of the neck when the pup is not behaving.
I tried a hard tug on my own self before I would allow it on Bogart.
This collar is NEVER used like a choker or a pinch collar. I abhor those!
Use correctly, it is a wonderful training tool when, and only when used correctly as demonstrated by a trainer who has, as Jac suggests, an animal behavioralist background as ours did.

Also, in off leash training, we used the shock collar ONLY as advised by the trainer. I again used this on myself first.

The reason I'm telling you all this, is because I want to be upfront and honest. I love this thread and hope that everyone will pay heed to what people are saying here.
Bogart being trained for service had to have a bit more "stuff". He wasn't a difficult dog to train, but he did have to learn to STOP, STAY etc to pass all his tests.
He's not a worse dog for it at all. He's just as happy as ever and doesn't need these tools anymore.
However, I do sometimes use the shock collar for MY security when I have him offleash near a street. He comes when called, but God forbid, if I need it....I want it and it makes me feel secure.

Sorry.........I hope everyone doesn't hate me now.......You all KNOW I love my Bogart and wouldn't hurt him for anything.

[cindy456]

Very interesting and informative post! I have already noticed with Mandy that she does a lot with "good girl" and pets and hugs when she goes potty outside!
Linda, you needed to train Bogart for service and with your injury he needed to learn fast, perfectly understandable for your safety and his!

[kirama]

If your dog tugs at the lead it is anxious, it's not intentionally misbehaving. It doesn't need correction, it needs you to make it feel secure. Try a gentle leader or a halti, neither of which cause any discomfort to the dog. Or, you can quite easily teach the dog to walk at your side by keeping treats in your hand and keeping your hand where you want him/her to walk. As he walks next to you, give him treats, he will quickly learn to follow your hand and stay close to it. If the dog is too anxious to respond to treats and keeps tugging at the lead- then 'become a tree' just stop in your tracks and stay until the dog quits tugging and returns to your side. There are so many ways to achieve results that don't involve choke chains, leash tugging, prong collars etc. It's just a matter of learning them. If possible, spend a few hours with an APDT, or CPDT trainer you will not regret it!.
here's a good article that explains the difference between the 'dominance based coercive training' and 'reward based training'
http://dogtime.com/cesar-millan-and-ian-dunbar.html
Here's another article on the same site that gives a simple to understand description of reward based training & some examples of how it applies to common problems:
http://dogtime.com/dog-training-food...rd-dunbar.html

[MaxandMe]

LINDA......i think we're all allowed to have differing opinions whereas some dogs may end up having to use a prong while others
respond to the halti.
the prong collar i used temporarily in short bursts is like yours BUT is different in that it hangs loosely and has a release clasp to it
so no removing links to get it on and off. It's like putting a regular collar on. ALSO you were shown by a trainer that had much experience
as I too had a trainer with 25yrs experience. Seriously max would only have it on maybe 20 or 30min at a time and now it's hanging
onmy wall like an art decoration as once i start to used hand signals well that's Max's signal we're in training

Anyway, the point of the topic in its real essence is that LOVING positive training methods go a long ways with doodles and can
teach MORE of who is the Alpha rather then the old days of harsher training.

JAC ........thanks again for posting this!!!! and i wonder if MORE people today use Vollard or other Positive methods to training
along with a GOOD Sense of HUMOR hahhaaaaaaa i still rememeber max's first few classes i wrote about in my blog articles hahaaaaaa
i'll be laughing till i am old and gray and so will the trainers

[lindamarie]

the prong collar i used temporarily in short bursts is like yours BUT is different in that it hangs loosely and has a release clasp to it
so no removing links to get it on and off.

That's what this one is! It has an instant release and hangs loosely!

I personally think it's the BOMB! When Bogart had it on, it was like it wasn't even there, yet correction could be made immediately and painlessly if needed. That's why our trainer uses it.

[sarahann]

Great thread!

I just had an issue with a friend who buys CM's training hook, line and sinker. He believes in it 100%. He has a wonderfully behaved English Bull Dog to show for consistency in training.

I told him a story of how Manchego bites carries the leash and might tug on it when we ride bikes and he immediately said "oh that's dominance, he wants to control the walk". I know my dog and I know he's just wants to play and/or have a job while he runs. If I tell him to leave it he drops the leash. I don't even bother arguing with him because there is no point. But I know in my dogs are much different than his bull dog. Very different in personality/temperament. And I definitely don't think that EVERY dog problem is due to dominance. Dogs are NOT that simple... especially not doodles

I do use a plastic pinch collar that I also tried on myself before using it on the dogs. If my dogs see a squirrel or cat and yank me towards it on a rainy day they could really hurt me or themselves if they run across a road. They don't pull much any more and not when we are walking it's mostly for safety. I had a certified trainer come to work with us and she agreed that it was an okay tool to use as long as you aren't using it to pop or yank them. Basically they activate it themselves not me.

I think that CM does wonders with dogs that are beyond what most trainers would help. They are extreme cases. Some dogs this will work for and others it won't. Training with positive methods is not an instant fix. It takes time and patience but I think the reward is a dog who will do things for you because they WANT to and to me that is the BIGGEST reward! I personally don't want dogs that are afraid of me.

[Jac]

Good post, Sara, thanks!

[KingstonTodd]

Sometimes it is necessary to be alpha, not for your dogs behaviour but for their protection from another dog. We have dog aggressive huskies in the neighbourhood and they growl and snarl when we walk past. I used to avoid them because they broke their chains before and we had a confrontation. I watched a training show on "showing your alpha" and tried some if it on them. Now, when we walk past and they start to snarl, i give them my alpha stance, and voice, and just say "quiet", and they turn and sit down. Some guard dogs eh? I out alpha'd them. So even if you dont use it on your dogs, its good to know how to be top dog to influece other dogs if needed.

[CharlieBear's Mom]

Very good point Todd

[Jac]

That is true, Todd, and I believe that you can be alpha within your own pack, but you don't need to do an alpha roll or any forceful behavior to gain that role. In fact, I have been reading about how dogs communicate and the signals they give and one (there are many) thing that the alpha dog does is to ignore all of the other dogs...when they are running around, trying to get attention and doing all of the stuff they can to play with the alpha, the alpha turns away and ignores them.
The alpha dog can take control of the entire pack when she (I say she, because Bayley, my smallest girl is alpha to our 13 dogs) wants to and she doesn't have to fight or even nip at them...she just growls or does a quick growl snap in the air and they stop!
My alpha girl can walk up to any of our dogs and take their favorite treat or toy right out of their mouth...when she wants to...but she doesn't do it often.
These things I learn from our alpha about being alpha...it is in a stance (as you said) and an attitude.
Your pack needs to know that you will protect them...that is what an alpha does, so you did the exact thing you needed to do...but that doesn't mean that you need to be mean to your pack to get respect.

[Jac]

I have been re-reading these posts and I want to clarify something...I wrote this post, not to condemn people for using prong collars, but to educate those who might be considering using them. I wanted to post my feelings, since I have put up posts in the past that support use of prong collars.
Now, I do NOT believe that they are painful...my aversion to using them NOW is that I believe that Doodles are very sensitive and that when we are having trouble in their training, it is likely something that WE are doing wrong, not the Doodle.
So, if someone is considering the prong collar, I would suggest FIRST that you contact a behavioralist to see if there is something going on that you are missing in your communications with the dog...and if there is no other choice, BEFORE you use a prong collar, LEARN HOW to properly use it. All of the people posting here, who use prong collars, have been taught to properly fit them and use them. If you do not learn the very specific techniques, you could harm your dog.
I also want to say that I don't have all the answers...I post my experiences and my opinions...but I am not always right and I often change my mind after using certain things over time.
What I AM certain of is that Doodles are extremely smart, sensitive and eager to please and with those wonderful traits in your favor, I think that you can learn to communicate with your Doodle and get wonderful results without the heavy-handed alpha mentality that is taught by Cesar Milan and others...so, my post was not directed merely at prong collars...
I am glad that Todd wrote about his experience because I do believe that you have to be a pack leader but I also believe that you gain that by getting your dog's respect and loyalty...through love and kindness, not fear and dominance.

To my friends who have differing opinions, please know that I am not condemning your methods or saying that you are a bad doodle parent! If I know anything at all, THIS I know...the owners on this forum have the utmost love and respect for their doodles!