Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out.

KingstonTodd · 03-14-2009, 09:08 PM

I thought I understood all the B's and E's of coat colour. But I just saw F1 GOLDENdoodles that are chocolate. I thought all golden retrievers were BBee or Bbee. So i guess the golden can carry chocolate, but she was mated to a red standrard poodle, which must also be Bbee or BBee, and he can also carry chocolate. BUT THEY ARE BOTH "ee"!!! So with no big "E" to pass down how did they get 1/2 a litter of chocolate's? What am I missing?

**MaxandMe** · 03-15-2009, 07:42 AM

TODD unless both the Red Poodle and golden ret have the genetics done then you didn't miss a thing.
ONE of them or both may have had recessive chocolate that crossed thus the 2 recessive then become "dominant recessive"

A poodle ...the genetics of colors more complicated as they aren't like a red golden retriever who only has a particular genetic makeup
POODLES can throw alot like partis, mismarks, and more and to-date there isn't a full color genetic testing available to know
what all the recessive genes are.

if neither carry chocolate then i don't know..........are you sure they're chocolate? or do they look muddy brown?
reds when born can look brownish then changing after few or more weeks.

KingstonTodd · 03-15-2009, 09:21 AM

They also have a chocolate standard poodle, maybe there was a accidental dual sired litter?

**MaxandMe** · 03-15-2009, 09:30 AM

a dog can lock with more than one male dog

TODD without knowing for sure which one then that would make sense
the only other thing is that ONE has to carry chocolate.

Genetics also carry the roll of the dice trait.......never can be 100% sure as
2 brown eyed parents say have 4 kids ...they have a 1 in 4 chance of having a blue eyed child
due to recessive genes carrying over.

we can't chart all recessive genes and where they lie on the dna strands thus the ROULETTE wheel comes to play

Diane at DVL · 03-15-2009, 11:46 AM

Hey Todd - I agree. There is NO WAY that the brown pups were sired by the red. You are right,there is no "E" to be given in that case, so brown is NOT an option. I'd be pointing the finger at that brown poodle. He's the baby daddy!

kirama · 03-15-2009, 06:02 PM

Do I have to break the news to Beck, when he's so young?

**MaxandMe** · 03-15-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirama

Do I have to break the news to Beck, when he's so young?

nawwww i'd leave things the way they are

Jac · 03-16-2009, 01:55 AM

HA! I am glad not to be alone on the genetics spin! I get so confused sometimes...

I can sort of understand what Annmarie said about the Poodle coloring...but I think that there is no way that an F1 Goldendoodle can be brown because the Golden Retriever doesn't carry brown...do they? Ever?

So, if the Golden Retirever doesn't carry brown...no matter what the Poodle carries, I don't think they would have brown puppies...but then, I don't think that would be possible even with a brown male...

For instance...Rosie, my F1 Goldendoodle carries cream/apricot/red and black only. We bred her to a brown Poodle who carried ONLY brown...we got 12 black puppies!

So, is there any chance that this litter is an F1B or highrer...even accidentally? Is there anything that the breeder might be hiding? (Like some Poodle owners don't want it known that their poodle sired a mixed litter?)

**MaxandMe** · 03-16-2009, 06:59 AM

okay later i'll post some genetic crosses and %ages

BBee x bbEE = 100% black

Diane at DVL · 03-16-2009, 07:51 AM

Jacque - I had to go looking for whether or not all Goldens are BB! I did come across a blurb in the Wikipedia definition that said pink nosed goldens are disqualified from show...so maybe there are a few that carry a 'b'? Does anybody know the answer to that? I LOVE genetics! I'm such a math geek

!

Just an FYI, those black puppies you had all carry brown now...they are all BbEe. So if backcrossed to a brown poodle bbEe you would have rainbow of 3/8 black, 1/4 cream, and 3/8 brown. If the poodle is bbEE you would get 1/2 brown, 1/2 black.

Here is a link to the Vet Gen site with a great explanation of color, and a handy chart to figure all this out: http://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color.html

Here is another chart that that is slightly different, but some people like more because of the color explanations on the bottom:
http://www.vetgen.com/documents/CoatCol ... notype.pdf

Jac · 03-16-2009, 05:56 PM

Well, believe it or not, I actually have studied these charts!! hahahaha I still get confused!
For instance...I have a hard time with the E and e.
ee means yellow dog
Ee means carries yellow
EE means no yellow

Soooooo, you add that to the B and b (BB is Black, bb is brown, Bb is black carrying brown)

If you have BBee you have a yellow dog (black nose)
If you have Bbee you have a yellow dog carrying brown (can have black, brown or yellow pups)
If you have bbee you have??? a yellow dog carrying brown or a brown dog carrying yellow???
If you have bbEe you have brown dog carrying yellow
If you have BBEe you have a black dog carrying yellow

If you have BbEe you have a black dog carrying yellow and brown???

And, if you have BBEE? Only black?

I guess that my question is...what is the E? I mean e is yellow and when you have Ee you have a yellow carrier (e being yellow) if you have ee you have a yellow dog...but what, exactly is E? From all I can tell, it indicates black, but black is B...so what is E?

For instance, what is bbEe? I know that the bb makes it brown and that the e is a yellow carrier...but what the heck is that big E???

KingstonTodd · 03-16-2009, 06:06 PM

How I think of it..........."E" allows the expression of dark pigment, so it allows "B" or "b" to be expressed. "e" does not allow dark pigment and therefore the dog is yellow by default. In the example I gave to start this thread, both parents are "ee" and therefoe do not allow dark pigment to be expressed in their coat, and do not have a "E" to pass on and therefore all puppies are "ee" and should not express dark pigment (black or brown). There must have been another father.

Jac · 03-16-2009, 06:23 PM

Oh, yeah...that was the topic! hahahaha...sorry!

Diane at DVL · 03-16-2009, 08:06 PM

You got it Jacque. And, just like Todd, I think of the E being "Extender" it "extends" the nose color (black or brown) up the hair shaft. The term yellow confuses me a little too, so everytime I see that, I replace it in my head with "cream and red"

Jac · 03-16-2009, 08:19 PM

Okay, I'm sorry but I am going way off topic for a sec...

Do any of you look at the picture of the Doodle and "feel" that is the "person" talking? You can't do that with mine, but some of you have such great avatars that I just sort of "see" it as the one speaking! hahahaha

Um hum...proof that I have jumped off the deep end!

03-14-2009, 09:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
KingstonTodd Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,005	Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. I thought I understood all the B's and E's of coat colour. But I just saw F1 GOLDENdoodles that are chocolate. I thought all golden retrievers were BBee or Bbee. So i guess the golden can carry chocolate, but she was mated to a red standrard poodle, which must also be Bbee or BBee, and he can also carry chocolate. BUT THEY ARE BOTH "ee"!!! So with no big "E" to pass down how did they get 1/2 a litter of chocolate's? What am I missing?

03-15-2009, 07:42 AM	#2 (permalink)
MaxandMe Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Upstate, NY Posts: 15,103	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. TODD unless both the Red Poodle and golden ret have the genetics done then you didn't miss a thing. ONE of them or both may have had recessive chocolate that crossed thus the 2 recessive then become "dominant recessive" A poodle ...the genetics of colors more complicated as they aren't like a red golden retriever who only has a particular genetic makeup POODLES can throw alot like partis, mismarks, and more and to-date there isn't a full color genetic testing available to know what all the recessive genes are. if neither carry chocolate then i don't know..........are you sure they're chocolate? or do they look muddy brown? reds when born can look brownish then changing after few or more weeks. __________________ *Annmarie, Max,& Peanut* "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." Anatole France uncondtional love: what a dog always does for us and humans strive to do but can we?

03-15-2009, 09:21 AM	#3 (permalink)
KingstonTodd Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,005	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. They also have a chocolate standard poodle, maybe there was a accidental dual sired litter?

03-15-2009, 09:30 AM	#4 (permalink)
MaxandMe Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Upstate, NY Posts: 15,103	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. a dog can lock with more than one male dog TODD without knowing for sure which one then that would make sense the only other thing is that ONE has to carry chocolate. Genetics also carry the roll of the dice trait.......never can be 100% sure as 2 brown eyed parents say have 4 kids ...they have a 1 in 4 chance of having a blue eyed child due to recessive genes carrying over. we can't chart all recessive genes and where they lie on the dna strands thus the ROULETTE wheel comes to play __________________ *Annmarie, Max,& Peanut* "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." Anatole France uncondtional love: what a dog always does for us and humans strive to do but can we?

03-15-2009, 11:46 AM	#5 (permalink)
Diane at DVL Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Southeastern PA Posts: 65	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. Hey Todd - I agree. There is NO WAY that the brown pups were sired by the red. You are right,there is no "E" to be given in that case, so brown is NOT an option. I'd be pointing the finger at that brown poodle. He's the baby daddy! __________________ Diane

03-15-2009, 06:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
kirama Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 858	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. Do I have to break the news to Beck, when he's so young? __________________

03-16-2009, 01:55 AM	#8 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. HA! I am glad not to be alone on the genetics spin! I get so confused sometimes... I can sort of understand what Annmarie said about the Poodle coloring...but I think that there is no way that an F1 Goldendoodle can be brown because the Golden Retriever doesn't carry brown...do they? Ever? So, if the Golden Retirever doesn't carry brown...no matter what the Poodle carries, I don't think they would have brown puppies...but then, I don't think that would be possible even with a brown male... For instance...Rosie, my F1 Goldendoodle carries cream/apricot/red and black only. We bred her to a brown Poodle who carried ONLY brown...we got 12 black puppies! So, is there any chance that this litter is an F1B or highrer...even accidentally? Is there anything that the breeder might be hiding? (Like some Poodle owners don't want it known that their poodle sired a mixed litter?)

03-16-2009, 06:59 AM	#9 (permalink)
MaxandMe Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Upstate, NY Posts: 15,103	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. okay later i'll post some genetic crosses and %ages BBee x bbEE = 100% black __________________ *Annmarie, Max,& Peanut* "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." Anatole France uncondtional love: what a dog always does for us and humans strive to do but can we?

03-16-2009, 07:51 AM	#10 (permalink)
Diane at DVL Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Southeastern PA Posts: 65	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. Jacque - I had to go looking for whether or not all Goldens are BB! I did come across a blurb in the Wikipedia definition that said pink nosed goldens are disqualified from show...so maybe there are a few that carry a 'b'? Does anybody know the answer to that? I LOVE genetics! I'm such a math geek ! Just an FYI, those black puppies you had all carry brown now...they are all BbEe. So if backcrossed to a brown poodle bbEe you would have rainbow of 3/8 black, 1/4 cream, and 3/8 brown. If the poodle is bbEE you would get 1/2 brown, 1/2 black. Here is a link to the Vet Gen site with a great explanation of color, and a handy chart to figure all this out: http://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color.html Here is another chart that that is slightly different, but some people like more because of the color explanations on the bottom: http://www.vetgen.com/documents/CoatCol ... notype.pdf __________________ Diane

03-16-2009, 05:56 PM	#11 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. Well, believe it or not, I actually have studied these charts!! hahahaha I still get confused! For instance...I have a hard time with the E and e. ee means yellow dog Ee means carries yellow EE means no yellow Soooooo, you add that to the B and b (BB is Black, bb is brown, Bb is black carrying brown) If you have BBee you have a yellow dog (black nose) If you have Bbee you have a yellow dog carrying brown (can have black, brown or yellow pups) If you have bbee you have??? a yellow dog carrying brown or a brown dog carrying yellow??? If you have bbEe you have brown dog carrying yellow If you have BBEe you have a black dog carrying yellow If you have BbEe you have a black dog carrying yellow and brown??? And, if you have BBEE? Only black? I guess that my question is...what is the E? I mean e is yellow and when you have Ee you have a yellow carrier (e being yellow) if you have ee you have a yellow dog...but what, exactly is E? From all I can tell, it indicates black, but black is B...so what is E? For instance, what is bbEe? I know that the bb makes it brown and that the e is a yellow carrier...but what the heck is that big E???

03-16-2009, 06:06 PM	#12 (permalink)
KingstonTodd Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,005	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. How I think of it..........."E" allows the expression of dark pigment, so it allows "B" or "b" to be expressed. "e" does not allow dark pigment and therefore the dog is yellow by default. In the example I gave to start this thread, both parents are "ee" and therefoe do not allow dark pigment to be expressed in their coat, and do not have a "E" to pass on and therefore all puppies are "ee" and should not express dark pigment (black or brown). There must have been another father.

03-16-2009, 06:23 PM	#13 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. Oh, yeah...that was the topic! hahahaha...sorry!

03-16-2009, 08:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
Diane at DVL Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Southeastern PA Posts: 65	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. You got it Jacque. And, just like Todd, I think of the E being "Extender" it "extends" the nose color (black or brown) up the hair shaft. The term yellow confuses me a little too, so everytime I see that, I replace it in my head with "cream and red" __________________ Diane

03-16-2009, 08:19 PM	#15 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: Colour genetics question, I thought I had it figured out. Okay, I'm sorry but I am going way off topic for a sec... Do any of you look at the picture of the Doodle and "feel" that is the "person" talking? You can't do that with mine, but some of you have such great avatars that I just sort of "see" it as the one speaking! hahahaha Um hum...proof that I have jumped off the deep end!

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