Process of Rehoming

[JennyFrank]

Hello fellow doodle owners. I really need your help/advice for myself and my family as we go through the difficult decision to rehome our 3 year old doodle, Charlie. It's been a while since I've been on this site, but our latest incident with our dog has lead us to the decision to have to find another home for him. Although Charlie is a loving dog to my husband and me he is extremly skittish and nervous around children and most dogs (and honestly, most adults other than a few people he has known all of his life). We have a two year old daughter who he has growled at twice (she's never left alone with him) but other than those two times, seems fine with. He has had a history of growling, snapping and bitting. The first time he bit - last summer-, he actually ran across the street and bit a child in the back (the child did not provoke him in any way - I was in the front yard and Charlie escaped from the garage door). More recently (Sunday) he bit our two year old nephew (who fell on him accidentaly). Luckily, in either situation no skin was broken but he definitly made contact. I know the two situations were comletly different, but his reaction was not.
We had him in puppy training when we first brought him home and have also worked with two other trainers (in our home). The most recent trainer we've worked with is amazing and we've really worked hard with Charlie to get him to realize he is not in charge in our home. It seems though that no matter how much progress he makes, he is still deep down inside not a good match for a family with children. He cannot handle the stress of having children around and that is what we have. We love this dog, but cannot put the safety of our child or others at risk.
I've visited the idog rescue website and am planning on filling out the paperwork, but my husband needs more time to digest the loss of our dog.
Please help.

[Raleighsmom]

I'm so very sorry to hear that you and your family is going thru this with Charlie...I know how upsetting it is for you to even think about rehoming him..but you've made the right decision in contacting IDOG...I'm sure they will find a good home for him where there are no children...from reading all your older posts, I can see that you've done everything possible to train him, but to no avail, as far as being jealous and aggressive...try not to feel guilty during his rehome process, as your children do come first, as well as relatives and neighbors children..a lot of towns have a 'one bite' rule, and if Charlie were to be reported once, and then a second time, he would be put down...I know that that's not what you want for him..
I wish you the best of luck in finding a good home for him where maybe these issues can be dealt with, and he won't be a danger to other children..please keep us posted!

[kirama]

Originally Posted by JennyFrank

Hello fellow doodle owners. I really need your help/advice for myself and my family as we go through the difficult decision to rehome our 3 year old doodle, Charlie. It's been a while since I've been on this site, but our latest incident with our dog has lead us to the decision to have to find another home for him. Although Charlie is a loving dog to my husband and me he is extremly skittish and nervous around children and most dogs (and honestly, most adults other than a few people he has known all of his life). We have a two year old daughter who he has growled at twice (she's never left alone with him) but other than those two times, seems fine with. He has had a history of growling, snapping and bitting. The first time he bit - last summer-, he actually ran across the street and bit a child in the back (the child did not provoke him in any way - I was in the front yard and Charlie escaped from the garage door). More recently (Sunday) he bit our two year old nephew (who fell on him accidentaly). Luckily, in either situation no skin was broken but he definitly made contact. I know the two situations were comletly different, but his reaction was not.
We had him in puppy training when we first brought him home and have also worked with two other trainers (in our home). The most recent trainer we've worked with is amazing and we've really worked hard with Charlie to get him to realize he is not in charge in our home. It seems though that no matter how much progress he makes, he is still deep down inside not a good match for a family with children. He cannot handle the stress of having children around and that is what we have. We love this dog, but cannot put the safety of our child or others at risk.
I've visited the idog rescue website and am planning on filling out the paperwork, but my husband needs more time to digest the loss of our dog.
Please help.

It really sounds like you care about this dog, but I am troubled when you say this most recent trainer was working to get him to realize who was in charge. That sounds very much like a trainer who believes in the whole alpha dog business, and you can get away with that with many dogs, but not one who is fearful- and dogs that aggress ARE fearful, not bad, not mean, not alpha, just scared. A good trainer would desensitize the dog to the things he is afraid of. Please look for an APDT or CPDT certified trainer. This will be a hard dog to rehome, I'm sure you realize that- it may well be that he ends up being euthanized. I'm not blaming or lecturing you as I said, you sound like you care a great deal about this dog and have tried very hard- but without knowing more about these failed training attempts I am really thinking a good trainer who knows how to deal with a fear aggressive dog might solve your problem. If you can't find one in your area, pm me and tell me where you live and I will ask my trainer for a referral.

[JennyFrank]

Thank you for your replies. I agree that it will be a difficult process to find a home for Charlie where there are no children (even visits from children would require him to be crated) and someone who is able to work with Charlie - that is why I've posted here for advice. Our trainer is certified CDT, but to be honest with you i'm not sure what the difference is between CPDT and CDT (or APDT). Charlie is definitly a fearful dog. He's afraid of most things, including skateboards (in motion and not), anything that is "out of place", other dogs (he has two doggie friends that he's known since puppyhood), noises in the neighborhood (banging on the roofs, grass blowers), you name it and he's probably afraid of it. I'm not really sure why. As a puppy, he was out and about everywhere with us. Even now, we take him on daily walks and try to expose him to things. But, it doesn't seem to make a difference. I do feel bad for him. It must stink living a life in fear and being nervous most of the time.

[tuffystar]

I am so sorry you are going through this. We had a dog that bit and it still breaks my heart because he was put down. I think what you are doing is terribly hard but good. If anyone can find a good place for him IDOG can. I mean we all would hope you could work it out and keep him but not at the expense of others and children. Good luck!

[kirama]

Originally Posted by JennyFrank

Thank you for your replies. I agree that it will be a difficult process to find a home for Charlie where there are no children (even visits from children would require him to be crated) and someone who is able to work with Charlie - that is why I've posted here for advice. Our trainer is certified CDT, but to be honest with you i'm not sure what the difference is between CPDT and CDT (or APDT). Charlie is definitly a fearful dog. He's afraid of most things, including skateboards (in motion and not), anything that is "out of place", other dogs (he has two doggie friends that he's known since puppyhood), noises in the neighborhood (banging on the roofs, grass blowers), you name it and he's probably afraid of it. I'm not really sure why. As a puppy, he was out and about everywhere with us. Even now, we take him on daily walks and try to expose him to things. But, it doesn't seem to make a difference. I do feel bad for him. It must stink living a life in fear and being nervous most of the time.

I don't know what CDT is, but the philosophy of an APDT or CPDT certified trainer is what I stressed before; aggressive dogs are fearful dogs, you don't force them to suppress their fear, you identify the issues that trigger their fear and slowly desensitize them to the stimulus. Here's the difference:
"old-school /alpha dog training" You are told the dog aggresses because you have not become the 'alpha dog' the technique usualy involves forcing the dog to submit passively rather than aggress. This always involves some degree of force, i.e. choke chains, tiring the dog out before the encounter so it is too tired to resist, leash corrections, pokes, kicks, forced alpha rolls. The dog will ultimately submit, but it did not learn not to be afraid. A commonly used term in this type of training is that the dog has to 'respect' you. I'm sorry, but dogs have no capacity for respect, it's not part of their genetic makeup.

"reward based, positive reinforcement/ counter conditioning"(CPDT/APDT certified trainer The theory is that dogs are not bad, that the alpha thing has been debunked time and time again, and your dog if it aggresses is just doing what a dog does if it's afraid; trying to protect itself. The dog is taken within visual range of what it aggresses toward, let's say it's men wearing a hat. The dog is moved closer, if it is calm it is rewarded, if it aggresses you move further away to the place where the dog was calm, you do not scold the dog, you just calmly turn and move back a bit. You move forward again, even if it's a few feet, continue doing this and treating the dog every time it is calm until the man wearing a hat is within 10 -15 feet, at that point you have the man wearing a hat (usually a neighor or friend) start tossing treats to the dog. have him move a bit closer and keep tossing treats (go slow) eventually the man should be able to drop treats right in front of the dog- next step is logical, take treat out of the hand of the man. Don't ever move fast, watch your dog for signs of stress (raised hackles, panting, yawning, aversion, etc) and move back when you see that - the goal is for the dog to now see men wearing hats as wonderful human beings- after all they say nice things and give out treats! Practice it regularly and the dog loses its fear. It will always work- I guarantee it, but it can take a long time and you should get professional help in learning how to read your dog's body language. You will need to desensitize the dog to EVERY object of it's fear so it's not easy but it's worthwhile when you achieve the result of a calm, confident friendly dog

[kirama]

Here's a website with some information that you might find useful:
http://www.fearfuldogs.com/?

[MaxandMe]

Hi Jenny i remember your previous posting of this problem back in July 2008 and also previous to that
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9907

I am hoping IDOG can help you out and get Charlie with an experienced owner who can work with CHARLIE
and give him more training that might break some of this habits he's developed since puppyhood
as with time and the right trainer and someone committed he make just turn around completely.

as when IDOG interviews you tell them the good/bad/pretty and ugly as giving ALL INFO really does help them
tremendously to placing CHARLIE with the right foster who may be able to get further results to-date

i also realize how attached you and your husband are to Charlie......i wish you the best of luck in placing CHARLIE
with a organization that can work with Charlie for optimal results

[Jac]

First I want to agree with the great training advice that Lynn gave...I believe that she is spot on...

But, in looking at this situation from a global perspective I think that the trainer was wrong and likely this electronic collar training did nothing more than to enhance Charlie's fear and as he grows older and his size is more of an issue, he is more and more a threat to the children.

I think that you have made the right decision, in this instance, to call IDOG and I agree with Annmarie that you need to be totally upfront with them about Charlie's behavior and fears. He is going to need a family where he is 100% understood, where they give him patience and love and where they use only those methods mentioned by Lynne to help Charlie through his fears, not punish him for his reaction to the fear.

I never saw a response from your previous posts when I suggested that you contact your breeder, but I do think that is still a good option. Your breeder may be able to find a proper rehome...but they should be notified, whether or not they participated in the rehoming process.

IDOG is an excellent entity, the volunteers are caring. They do this out of love and they want what is best for the dogs too. So, Charlie will be placed with the right type of home, but he may need a good foster home first. IDOG is prepared to move in this direction.

My advice, then, is to contact IDOG and give them all the information you can...I also suggest that you ask them to take Charlie to a proper foster home in the interim because leaving him with your family is putting your children and Charlie at risk.

This is a very difficult decision and I understand that it must be heartbreaking to you and your husband, the children too...but everyone will adjust, and Charlie may find the home where he will be able to thrive.

[JennyFrank]

I really do appreciate all of the posts regarding Charlie. Although, we called the breeder a while back the number was no longer in service. We obviously love this dog very much and have worked hard to help him with his fear issues. I understand the difference between the type of training that was described and of course feel terrible if we added to or caused more of his fears by the training that we were taught. We've read a few different books on training and have tried a variety of things (which, one could say isn't the right thing because you could confuse the dog). Depending on who you talk to, what you read, and what you see happen with other dogs, you find yourself spinning in different directions. Keeping Charlie means putting my daughter and others at risk, while rehoming Charlie means we've failed him and that we must not love or care for him enough to be dedicated to the "right" training. This is an awful position to be in.

[tuffystar]

Keeping Charlie means putting my daughter and others at risk, while rehoming Charlie means we've failed him and that we must not love or care for him enough to be dedicated to the "right" training.

As I read what you said I could understand. With us when our dog bit someone and ate his way through our door we had to put him down. We tried a trainer but things happened and we did not know about rescue groups (and we weren't sending him back to the pound for the 4rd time). I believe that going to the pound so many times in the first year and a half made our dog the way he was! I don't believe that you did not love Charlie enough or care for him enough. Biting is serious and sometimes it takes someone else to make a breakthrough. Please don't beat yourself up. Rehoming may just help Charlie find the help he needs. You have to keep others safe esp. children. If anyone can find help for Charlie and the right home it is IDOG. Good luck.