TWO jobs, TWO years old, TOO much??

[lindamarie]

When I talked with annmarie the other night, she brought something up to me that was interesting.
It all came about as annmarie discussed how naturally Max has become her caretaker and assists her in a variety of ways. Even Peanut is catching on!

Bogart was trained to help me with my PTSD and physical pain as a result of it. The trainer understood this and one very important thing is that I want Bogart in the bed with me.
He insisted that I cut this out until Bogart understood that he couldn't just hop up there w/o being asked. The Springer Spaniel that I had prior to Bogart was always in my bed. I loved it! So, I didn't want this to change and I needed Bogart to be there. Nope! I had to be the Alpha momma until he was completely trained.
As a result, Bogart will HUP onto the bed when asked, but he doesn't feel comfortable being there for too long! Me? I want to snuggle and feel his body warmth against my sore back and just have him there. He'll last about 5 minutes and then jumps off. Sometimes he'll then lie at the side of the bed next to me. And other times, he loves to go in his crate.
If I make him STAY...he feels nervous although he will do it, but I get to a point where I release him and let him go do his thing. But, I haven't accomplished my needs........oops.....sounds like TMI!
But, seriously, that's what Bogart was suppose to be able to do and I'm ticked off at the trainer for changing this. As a pup, he was there........and then now 2, he's uncomfortable.

NOW! Throw in therapy and working with kids! He is such the KID dog! Bogart is very distracted whenever kids are around. Since his JOB TWO is working with autistic and Downe Syndrome kids,,,and we're still waiting for the local hospital to do their final evaluation for pediatrics......he wants KIDS!
He snuggles more with kids, hugs more etc. The 2 evaluators are STILL recovering from one a broken knee...the other a broken leg.
Chloe, 7 years old and with juvenile diabetes........he adores her. He can sense her needs and she can lie on the bed or couch with him.
The other day, in the grocery store, he could hear a little kid crying and he just wanted to get to this kid!!
If we are around special needs kids........he wants to be there....anywhere! Whether it be in his therapy or meeting a special needs child in a store, on the street..whatever! I think it's AWESOME.........but what about me?? SELFISH ME! LOL
I have even fake cried.........and it doesn't fake him out!

We DO have an unbelievable bond. He looks me right in the eyes and communicates. One day, I was in the grocery store and was in a lot of pain and anxiety. I sort of squatted down and buried my head in his..........when no one was around.......and he helped! It's not like he blows me off.
But,is it possible, as annmaie said.......that he really is doing two jobs and it may be too much?

I hate to take him away from kids..........but is it possible that I may have to to get him back on track and do some more intense training to be there for me and me alone? waaaaaaaaaa

[Jac]

Wow, Linda, this is heartbreaking...and complex.

First I want to say that our dogs are not hard-wired to expect anything at all...they will do whatever we ask of them, so long as they understand and it does not go against what they instinctively know is wrong (such as a blind person commanding the dog to go in front of a car)...but I'll tell you what I have learned....

First is that Doodles mature more slowly than other dogs. There is an excellent trainer who has been working with my friend to get her dog prepared to be a therapy dog. This dog is now a personal service dog to my friend as well. So, he has a dual world of service. This particular dog is not yet 3 years old and he has had a recent setback (nothing serious but very frustrating for the owner) and the trainer told her not to push her dog further than the dog is ready to go.... She said that it has been her experience in training Doodles, she has trained a lot of them, that they don't fully mature until they are 3 years old.

I think that is true. My dogs seem to mature around 3 years of age.

Her advice is not to put too much pressure on the dog at this time, to make it fun for the dog and not require too much. So, it is possible that Bogie is trying to be too many types of dogs ...at this time...that dosen't mean that he can't be, but that you may need to relax your expectations a bit.

I strongly suggest that you read a book that I have been reading...it has an amazingly fresh outlook on dog training. It was written for dogs in agility, but it is so wonderful...the advice is so solid...I think it is one of the best training books I have read. The author, a trainer, talks about discovering what the dog "wants" to do...and that might be a key for you and Bogie...anyway, it is a great book: Control Unleashed - Creating a Focused and Confident Dog
Leslie McDevitt

While it is possible that Bogie is confused with his dual role, because as a SD he needs to focus on you and as a TD he has to focus on the public, he will be able to do it all (because dogs are so capable and smart) but he may have learned that he is more comfortable sleeping on the floor or in his crate. So, I would suggest that you accept his cuddles while he is there and that he is not "leaving" you to sleep but he is doing what he has been conditioned to do...you could reverse that, the same as you do all things...by conditioning him to stay with you.

I would suspect that after a month of sleeping with you (with rewards and conditioning) he will be happy to sleep on the bed again.

Now, I want to be very clear that I am not of the belief that dogs need a leader to take charge of all things. Like going through doorways...I think that it is a matter of what works for you and your dog...you can train a dog to wait for you to go through first, but only if that is what you need/want...not because it is the "respectful" thing to do...remember, we are humans, thinking like humans...dogs don't have the same reasoning. As far as needing a pack leader, yes, they do...so that they feel protected. You can be the pack leader without being dominant.

I see this every day because our pack leaders are the most "accidental" leaders ever! They do no have to be the biggest or the meanest...they are just respected. I really can't say why. In the case of Bayley, she is our smallest female and when she eats, every dog in the place backs away and lets her eat. I don't know why. She has never forced the issue. When Bayley is finished, the dogs all move in and eat together.

The same thing happens with Sherwood when he is with the "boy" dogs. He is goofy, gentle and very sweet...not a mean bone in his body. He doesn't bark, growl or fight...but the other dogs give him a wide berth...they respect him.

I am saying that dogs do not need a display of "alpha attitude" to respect a pack leader...and I believe that you are alrady the pack leader with Bogie...so, try to put that notion to rest.

[MaxandMe]

Jac i always love reading the replies you take time to write. and i'll email you about the book you're talking about.

I tihnk doodles are right up there w/border collies as they age they become intuitve at times and just a look we have or
action and a doodle will aid or do what's expected as long as WE are the ALPHA pack leader who gives them direction.

the only dogs really that don't take direction are the wild UNDOMESTICATED dogs per se wolves and coyotes and feral dogs, etc.

LINDA .......GUESS WHAT? MAX rarely snuggles with me but will with Alivia, DAVE etc.......but he knows if i am really hurting
he will sleep with me but ONLY by invitation. Peanut snuggles in bed with my son, daughter and Dave but with me
she hops down 5minutes later. I remember in OB training they stated to expect this and I am doing public training again
w/Max and when my leg heals then Peanut.

i really wanted MAX to be a therapy dog but in reality he is my MEDIC and semi-assistance dog which i do need
and put the therapy on the back burner as ALIVIA is 14mos old which is giving bothmy doodles great exposure to tiny kids


LINDA you have to go with what you and BOGIE are able to keep up with...........and with your present job, stress level and more
i wondered if having Bogie as an assistance ONLY dog for the time being might be better and let him play with Chloe?????

I am not an expert I am just lucky i was able to foster dogs on and off for almost 30yrs and go to many OB training classes
along with having friends that have std poodles and border collies-------meaning i see the similarities in intelligence and intuition
and/or doodles being so different than other breeds. I TRULY believe Doodles are a breed and I thank GOD that he put Max
and Peanut in my and my family's life.

KEEP us posted on how things go LINDA .....you know we love to discuss/hear this .

[lindamarie]

Jac and annmarie! You guys are so GREAT!
See.......annmarie...the other day when we were on the phone and you brought this up, it really stuck in my head! That's why I decided to post about this.
I can see that perhaps Bogart has not yet reached full maturity and why would I wanna rush that!!?
Bogart is such a silly, funny and loving doodle. In so many ways, he is still very PUPPY! Yet, he knows how to work hard and listen to me and love me.
I guess I'll just have to wait until we can MAYBE move to the snuggly stage! And, if it doesn't happen, I still know he's there for me.

He didn't go to the autistic/special needs class this morning. They were expecting about 300 people and they thought it best to not have Bogart there. Sounds silly to me...but whatever.
Annmarie.......I can stop the kid thing for now..but keeping Chloe away from Bogart.......?????????...... IMPOSSIBLE!! Bogart away from Chloe??........???????......... IMPOSSIBLE! He sees her in her yard going to school in the morning and starts talking to her! She responds too!

Thanks for the book recommendation, Jac. I'll get it soon.
You mentioned it's more for agility but is great for any training and bonding.
I have often thought of taking Bogart to an agility class. Do you think this would help?

[MaxandMe]

Annmarie.......I can stop the kid thing for now..but keeping Chloe away from Bogart.......?????????...... IMPOSSIBLE!! Bogart away from Chloe??........???????......... IMPOSSIBLE! He sees her in her yard going to school in the morning and starts talking to her! She responds too!

LINDA........read what i wrote again I mean LET BOGIE PLAY WITH CHLOE instead of doing therapy w/kids for now

[tuffystar]

Linda, I can't add much to what you have already read. There are a few things I have thought of but you have to go with your trainer and what you feel is right. I will say this, that my trainer felt it was ok to leave Tia and our sleeping/snuggling as it was. What he did change was being sure that she got off of the bed when I needed her to. I have had more trouble training Tia to let me get out of bed first than giving me my space on the bed. I think you are doing great things, keep up the good work. This is my humble opinion anyway.

[lindamarie]

Thanks all........and yes, annmarie.........yesterday, Bogart had Chloe! He also had tons of kids on walks and in stores!

Bogart surprised me last night and snuggled.....
He stayed about an hour than went to the side of my bed.

[kirama]

Beck isn't cuddly with me- at all! He never has been, but OMG with my husband or my youngest son, he is all over them, tries to sit in their lap, cuddles with them when they lay down. But, when I leave the house Beck sits by the door and won't have a thing to do with either of them until I get home. I can't figure it out, and I kind of gave up on trying to. Murphy on other hand is the 'velcro' dog. He follows me everywhere, cuddles up close against me every chance he gets and stays cuddled up even if it's hot and he is panting lol.

[Jac]

Originally Posted by tuffystar

Linda, I can't add much to what you have already read. There are a few things I have thought of but you have to go with your trainer and what you feel is right. I will say this, that my trainer felt it was ok to leave Tia and our sleeping/snuggling as it was. What he did change was being sure that she got off of the bed when I needed her to. I have had more trouble training Tia to let me get out of bed first than giving me my space on the bed. I think you are doing great things, keep up the good work. This is my humble opinion anyway.

All of my dogs know the command for getting off the bed in the morning...all I say is, "Should we get up?" and every dog leaps off of the bed and starts the wake up shake! LOL