need some advice please !

[Mel]

Spike is 5.5 months old now and doing pretty well apart from the nipping and jumping up, he is much worse with the children because they are rarely calm and their energy just gets him more excited and difficult to handle.

Our problem now is that he seems to be aggressive when it comes to milk bones and bully sticks.
I noticed a few weeks ago that he would growl if i went near him when he was eating a milk bone, i immediately said loudly "NO" and then took the milk bone away, made him submit and then gave it back with praise, i repeated this a few times each day and we had great results....no growling. Even my 3 yr old could take the milk bone away, and return it . She would break bits off and hand feed him with no problems. We thought we had got over that hurdle...fast forward to today.

I gave Spike a bully stick and after 20 minutes or so i went back to him and tried to retrieve it he growled at me so i put him down on his side with a firm "NO" and took it away. After he submitted and was calm i gave it back with praise. Then i started to bake a cake with my 3 yr old and my 7 yr old comes into the kitchen and as he is talking to me he leans in to the crate to pat Spike on the head. I didn't see what happened, i was facing the other way but i heard the bark/growl and then the scream from my son.

Spike had snapped at him and caught his finger, more of a scrape of skin which bled a little and hurt . I told my son to go straight to the bathroom and i yelled at Spike and put him on his side then put him out into the back yard. After 2 band-aids and some candy my son was ok although upset with Spike.

So now i feel totally guilty that this happened and not sure what to do next. My worry is that Spike thinks he is above the children in the pack...he dominates them at times and it is hard to teach them how to be dominant over him, they are still young. Spike is very submissive to my husband and somewhat with me, i know he sees me as 'mom' because i am the one to groom him every night and fuss over him. I do have the children feed him and they are great at making him sit and wait for them to put the bowl down then they tell him that he can 'go eat'. This is the only time i can see them dominant over him.

Any thoughts ? thanks everyone, i would love some advice !
Sorry for the manifesto !!!!

[deepnite10]

IMO..there is a problem with praising him..

he disobeys, you correct him, then reward..actually i see you
rewarding him for his acting aggressive..

though in your own mind your rewarding him for being submissive..he see s that by being aggressive will eventually end with a reward..

try holding a treat in your hand..using your other hand to keep him at a distance..then close your hand into a fist with the treat inside..make him sit and stay..show a bit of the treat..then little by little allow him to sniff and lick at it..then give it to him..

he should come to understand that he get s a treat only when he s behaving or obeying..if not then deny him the reward and try again later..

as for taking something away..eventaully there ll be a need for obedience
training where he and you will learn the *drop it, leave it* commands..

[Mel]

Deepnite, thank you the treat idea sounds very good and i will definitely give that a go tomorrow. Thinking about it, you are right..praising him at that time is not the right thing to do. I have stopped that today and been a lot more dominant with him whilst trying to remain calm I have told the children that they shouldn't pet him until he is calm and submissive, that worked this morning but my youngest one is tricky...she is very excitable and sets Spike of crazy then i have to step in and calm them both down. It has been stressful today . Spike growled at me again when i had put his bowl of food down this morning and then went to pat his head, i took the bowl up with a firm "no" then made him lie down for a minute calmly then returned his food. He growled again and i repeated this two more times by which time he didn't go back to the bowl but just lay at my feet . Eventually he ate his food quietly.

Am i expecting too much of him ? should he just be left to eat in peace without anyone allowed near him ?

We have also told the children not to go near him when he is eating or in his crate, that is HIS space and they shouldn't go there. Is this the right thing ? I am nervous of another bite, my kids are small and are my priority.

[Riverkatie]

Hi there Mel. I have been thinking about this, and before I go any further, I have to say where i am coming from. I do not like Ceasar Milan (what I have seen of him on Youtube...we don't have a telly) and I do not think that most family dogs, are as worried as all that about being top dog. That said, here goes.

It sounds to me as if Spike is anxious. Now I may be wrong here, but if we follow this theory of Spike wanting to be dominant where does it lead us? What are top dogs like? Well most of them are relaxed and confident, and also protective of their pack particularly the young. All wolf packs value their young. If spike was truly a dominant dog, wouldn't he not mind the young (the kids) sharing his food? Adult wolves regurgitate their own food for the pups. If you truly believe you must be a dominant alpha to control a dog, you have a problem because your 3 year old is never going to be that dominant.

Now obviously I don't know Spike, so put anything I say through your commonsence filter!

Could Spike be anxious? It seems you have a habit of disciplining him by 'putting him down'. This is frightening to a dog. If your hubby physically frightened you every time you made a mistake, you might be a little anxious too. Now Spike is not a human, and he doesn't think like a human and he doesn't understand English except the words we have taught them, but he learns fast.

If he is anxious because the kids have come near his food (and he is not a top dog or he wouldn't be so worried) he now has double cause to be anxious. He says "I'm worried, the kids might steal my food", he shows this by growling, and you give him more reason to be anxious by 'putting him down'

I think you had the right idea when you had the kids handfeeding him. Instead of scaring him how about showing him he has nothing to fear if the kids come near him? Get them to hand feed him his dinner (with your supervision of course)
'Spike come' says your 3 year old. Spike comes and gets a piece of his breakfast. 'Spike sit' she says, another piece of breakfast.
Spike learns the kids GIVE him food, not take it, and he also learns nobody is going to be scary around food.

Most dogs growl or bite because they are scared (not all, there are plenty of aggressive dogs out there, but they are usually adults not adolescents) so what is Spike scared of? If he is defensive about his crate, then we need to make it OK for the kids to go in there. Kid crawls in crate, Spike gets piece of chicken and loads of praise. If he guards his toys Spike has to give them up for praise, cuddles and gets them back again.
It is unsafe to have places that Spike guards, that the kids cannot go near. What if your 3 year old disobeys you whilst you are in the loo, and opens the crate and crawls inside? Spike must learn to think this is a good and fun thing.

Dogs love food and fun. So these are easy things to use as a reward, along with reassurance etc. Obviously with such young kids you have to supervise all these interactions, preferably with 2 adults, one for the kids and one for the dog.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

[lindamarie]

What a great response, Katie! That took time, effort and a lot of thought processing!

I always love when people bring up the wolf. We must learn that our dogs are like the wolf in all ways. A dog left in the wild will act like a wolf for security, living, eating etc.
We domesticate these little fluffy balls of love and always need to remember the wolf in the process.

If I read this right, except for the biting of your son, these things always happen with food.
One thing I have found out with having dogs most of my life.......is that any "treat" that was once a living thing......like the bully stick or pigs ear.....makes the dog even more protective and wild.
At one time, I had a Springer Spaniel and a Weimeraner/Lab.
The Springer, Casey, was a pup and Toby, the WL was up in his years. I gave both of them a pigs ear. Casey finished his fast and then literally attacked Toby for his that he hadn't finished! He jumped on his back and started growling and grabbing. Toby was very submissive and just gave it to Casey.
I felt sooooo bad for gentle Toby!!

NOW! Here is the problem! This went on the remainder of Toby's life. Casey, although a very sweet, funny and lovable dog never changed his ways. Until the day he died, I was nervous with him around kids and other dogs.

In conclusion, I would stop using any living parts of animals. Go to Nylabones or something else that Spike won't be so crazy about.
Katie is right. Bogart is a Service and Therapy dog and any child can do whatever they want to him. (Yes, I am careful they don't hurt him).......but he is the most gentle dog I ever had aside from Toby.
Kids or adults should be able to tug at their ears, stick their hands in their mouths and play with their toes.
I also, as deepnite said, wouldn't keep up the reward thingie. There are a zillion ways to let the entire family become Alpha......and Alpha you all must become.
Before Spike does anything......even go outside you must make him do something. Never let him out the door first. He must sit and stay until you invite him outside and same when coming in.
Never feed him until he sits stays and gets the OKAY command to approach and eat his food.
Bogart is now 3 years old and this has all become a habit we do until this very day and forever.
For example, if you place the bowl of food down.....and can't get him to sit and stay.....take the bowl and put it up on top of the fridge or something for about a 1/2 hr. Then try again.
This may sound cruel, but he doesn't eat until he sits, stays and approaches the bowl ONLY with an OKAY!

Have you had any obedience classes yet?

Keep us posted. Training pups can be difficult, but we must stick to our guns or they will go the way of the wolf.

[lindamarie]

What a great response, Katie! That took time, effort and a lot of thought processing!

I always love when people bring up the wolf. We must learn that our dogs are like the wolf in all ways. A dog left in the wild will act like a wolf for security, living, eating etc.
We domesticate these little fluffy balls of love and always need to remember the wolf in the process.

If I read this right, except for the biting of your son, these things always happen with food.
One thing I have found out with having dogs most of my life.......is that any "treat" that was once a living thing......like the bully stick or pigs ear.....makes the dog even more protective and wild.
At one time, I had a Springer Spaniel and a Weimeraner/Lab.
The Springer, Casey, was a pup and Toby, the WL was up in his years. I gave both of them a pigs ear. Casey finished his fast and then literally attacked Toby for his that he hadn't finished! He jumped on his back and started growling and grabbing. Toby was very submissive and just gave it to Casey.
I felt sooooo bad for gentle Toby!!

NOW! Here is the problem! This went on the remainder of Toby's life. Casey, although a very sweet, funny and lovable dog never changed his ways. Until the day he died, I was nervous with him around kids and other dogs.

In conclusion, I would stop using any living parts of animals. Go to Nylabones or something else that Spike won't be so crazy about.
Katie is right. Bogart is a Service and Therapy dog and any child can do whatever they want to him. (Yes, I am careful they don't hurt him).......but he is the most gentle dog I ever had aside from Toby.
Kids or adults should be able to tug at their ears, stick their hands in their mouths and play with their toes.
I also, as deepnite said, wouldn't keep up the reward thingie. There are a zillion ways to let the entire family become Alpha......and Alpha you all must become.
Before Spike does anything......even go outside you must make him do something. Never let him out the door first. He must sit and stay until you invite him outside and same when coming in.
Never feed him until he sits stays and gets the OKAY command to approach and eat his food.
Bogart is now 3 years old and this has all become a habit we do until this very day and forever.
For example, if you place the bowl of food down.....and can't get him to sit and stay.....take the bowl and put it up on top of the fridge or something for about a 1/2 hr. Then try again.
This may sound cruel, but he doesn't eat until he sits, stays and approaches the bowl ONLY with an OKAY!

Have you had any obedience classes yet?

Keep us posted. Training pups can be difficult, but we must stick to our guns or they will go the way of the wolf.

[Riverkatie]

Hey Lindamarie, I am hoping Ruff will be a therapy dog too, Barney was. Ruff is already well on his way to meeting his '100 people by 12 weeks"!

Interesting story about Casey. I never thought about that. I will have to think about that, and it must be the same for bones etc as well. Humm....

[Nikkiey]

Originally Posted by Riverkatie

I think you had the right idea when you had the kids handfeeding him. Instead of scaring him how about showing him he has nothing to fear if the kids come near him? Get them to hand feed him his dinner (with your supervision of course)
'Spike come' says your 3 year old. Spike comes and gets a piece of his breakfast. 'Spike sit' she says, another piece of breakfast.
Spike learns the kids GIVE him food, not take it, and he also learns nobody is going to be scary around food.
Dogs love food and fun. So these are easy things to use as a reward, along with reassurance etc. Obviously with such young kids you have to supervise all these interactions, preferably with 2 adults, one for the kids and one for the dog.

That is what I would have suggested! Hand feeding not only helps build trust, but a stronger bond between human and animal. (Please don't think I'm suggesting people should go out and try this with a bear or something totally different senario!)

[Mel]

Originally Posted by Riverkatie

Hi there Mel. I have been thinking about this, and before I go any further, I have to say where i am coming from. I do not like Ceasar Milan (what I have seen of him on Youtube...we don't have a telly) and I do not think that most family dogs, are as worried as all that about being top dog. That said, here goes.

It sounds to me as if Spike is anxious. Now I may be wrong here, but if we follow this theory of Spike wanting to be dominant where does it lead us? What are top dogs like? Well most of them are relaxed and confident, and also protective of their pack particularly the young. All wolf packs value their young. If spike was truly a dominant dog, wouldn't he not mind the young (the kids) sharing his food? Adult wolves regurgitate their own food for the pups. If you truly believe you must be a dominant alpha to control a dog, you have a problem because your 3 year old is never going to be that dominant.

Now obviously I don't know Spike, so put anything I say through your commonsence filter!

Could Spike be anxious? It seems you have a habit of disciplining him by 'putting him down'. This is frightening to a dog. If your hubby physically frightened you every time you made a mistake, you might be a little anxious too. Now Spike is not a human, and he doesn't think like a human and he doesn't understand English except the words we have taught them, but he learns fast.

If he is anxious because the kids have come near his food (and he is not a top dog or he wouldn't be so worried) he now has double cause to be anxious. He says "I'm worried, the kids might steal my food", he shows this by growling, and you give him more reason to be anxious by 'putting him down'

I think you had the right idea when you had the kids handfeeding him. Instead of scaring him how about showing him he has nothing to fear if the kids come near him? Get them to hand feed him his dinner (with your supervision of course)
'Spike come' says your 3 year old. Spike comes and gets a piece of his breakfast. 'Spike sit' she says, another piece of breakfast.
Spike learns the kids GIVE him food, not take it, and he also learns nobody is going to be scary around food.

Most dogs growl or bite because they are scared (not all, there are plenty of aggressive dogs out there, but they are usually adults not adolescents) so what is Spike scared of? If he is defensive about his crate, then we need to make it OK for the kids to go in there. Kid crawls in crate, Spike gets piece of chicken and loads of praise. If he guards his toys Spike has to give them up for praise, cuddles and gets them back again.
It is unsafe to have places that Spike guards, that the kids cannot go near. What if your 3 year old disobeys you whilst you are in the loo, and opens the crate and crawls inside? Spike must learn to think this is a good and fun thing.

Dogs love food and fun. So these are easy things to use as a reward, along with reassurance etc. Obviously with such young kids you have to supervise all these interactions, preferably with 2 adults, one for the kids and one for the dog.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

WOW !! thank you so much for this great reply and very valuable advice Everything you have said makes absolute sense !
I have spoken to my husband a few times about his tendency to 'put spike down' on his side...it does seem to be overused and he is doing it less. We are a highly strung couple at times....we need to work on that. I realise an anxious owner can lead to an anxious dog so i am aware of my energy and try to stay calm. He could very well be nervous though, it is hard to stay calm when my kids are involved and crying when he 'nips' them during play.

I am sorry i haven't replied before now, we had some computer issues and i have been very busy now the kids are out of school for the summer.

we have had no more biting, a little growling with a toy when my 3 yr old tried to take it away....
my children do feed Spike and make him sit before hand then he is allowed to eat when they say "ok, go eat"....he is very compliant with that.
I have told the children to stay away from the crate when spike is eating, and to not reach in there to retrieve toys mainly because i am worried about another incident. I agree with you that i could be busy and my 3 yr old or even my 7 yr old will forget and go into the crate for something. Spike doesn't seem to care if my youngest takes a toy from the crate (she has done this a couple of times when my back was turned) i guess i just have to keep that going and make it a normal part of the day for them and him.
When we return home from being out, the children are the ones to let him out of the crate, they make him sit first then when he is calm the open the crate together.

Linda, it's interesting that you mention the 'animal product' aspect...i said the same thing to my husband and we don't let him have bully sticks now...he is far to obsessive about them.

thanks again everyone, i really appreciate your fantastic advice and sorry again for such a delay in checking back in !