Aggression

ladybird · 02-23-2010, 03:39 PM

I am trying very hard to stop my 10 wk old puppy from biting my hands, I have bites and scratches every where. I have tried saying no and pushing him away, but he just thinks i'm playing and comes back again for more. I have tried holding his mouth shut and saying 'shut' but he gets aggressive towards me. My husband feels that holding him down by the scruff of his neck, like an alfa male would do will help. An ideas please.

KingstonTodd · 02-23-2010, 03:50 PM

I usually advice the more gentle methods first (ignoring, diversion with an appropriate toy, loud noise) before more agressive things. Be patient with these methods and give them time to work. Also, exercise is key. A tired puppy is better behaved and you should not resort to more harsh training methds because a puppy has too much energy pent up from lack of an outlet (not saying this is you, just being complete in my answer). I have used the snout hold and scruff hold and it does get the point across if the other methods have failed. Be carefull to never hurt or elicit fear in your puppy. It is about communicating that the bahaviour is not acceptable and must stop. If you do anything like a scruff hold, do it quickly, and let go quickly, dont restrain them for long, just long enough to say "NO BITE, BAD PUPPY", and then let go and walk away. It is about a message and not fear. If you restrain them for longer and it becomes a struggle then the message and the link to the behaviour is lost and the puppy is only learing that you are somebody who makes them afraid and upset. If you ever saw how harsh yet how quick and short lived a correction from a mama dog is with a 8-10 week old puppy that is doing something she doesnt like, you would really see how ignoring and a noise may not be enough sometimes. Some puppies dont pick up on the subtle hints.

Jac · 02-23-2010, 04:35 PM

I agree with Todd...and when I use a snout hold it is really not a hold because the puppy can pull out and it is not a clamp...but more of a suggestion, sort of like when you put your finger to your lips and shush a child...no force, just a reminder.
Any time you use aggressive tactics, especially with a puppy, you are training with fear and trying to treat aggression with aggression. I am 100% against Cesar Milan methods... http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyl ... whisperer/ I strongly suggest that you learn clicker training... http://www.clickertraining.com/ your puppy is at the ideal age for clicker training and it can be so successful.
Please remember that your puppy is only 10 weeks old. You would not grab a naughty toddler by the throat and hold it on the ground to prove that you are the boss, would you?
Does anyone in your family play tug of war with the puppy? Is it sometimes okay to wrestle with the puppy? Does anyone get on the floor and play keep away or tug games? If so, this is encouraging the biting and overly excited play...if not, then the puppy needs to learn alternative behaviors.
I have a very energetic girl and she plays extremely rough with the other dogs...but when she would try to play rough with me, I always seem to get calming results by reaching down and scratching her chest. This has worked with all of my dogs...and while I do that, I gently say, good settle, good quiet...and that, together with teaching her how to sit on command, has helped us a lot.
You may be trying to get the cart before the horse. At 10 weeks, you can easily teach a puppy to gently take treats from you and to sit on command. Once you teach him the basics, build on that behavior...when he gets wild, tell him to sit...and be sure to reward him. Teach him to stay, and reward him. If you get those behaviors down pat, you can put him in a sit stay and walk away when he is wild. He will soon learn the connection.
I sincerely believe in clicker training and there are good sites that give basic information...but more importantly, you might want to establish puppy kindergarten in your area. This will give your puppy some safe play time with other dogs where he will learn bite inhibition.

These are some good articles on puppy aggression:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=1128

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=1743

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=2882

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=1740

Jac · 02-23-2010, 04:37 PM

One other thing, he is very young, but there could be a thyroid issue if he continues to display aggression: http://itsfortheanimals.com/THYROID-ARTICLES.HTM

KingstonTodd · 02-23-2010, 04:38 PM

How old was the puppy when you got it?

ladybird · 02-23-2010, 05:16 PM

He was 8 weeks old when we got him.

Thanks for all the great advice I will take it all on board and let you know how I get on.

kirama · 02-23-2010, 05:52 PM

put the pup on a tether so you can get away from him without him following you. When he nips at you, YELP! REALLY LOUD like one of his littermates would if he bit them too hard. Immediately turn your back on the pup and walk away. Wait a few seconds, return to the pup and pet the puppy as normal, if he starts nipping- do the same thing again. You may need to do it 20 times at first, but he will 'get it'. You are simply letting him know that when he does certain things, you will not pay attention to him.

Among a family unit of dogs- THAT is how dogs treat each other- a dominant male would NOT pin down a puppy, he would turn his back on the puppy and ignore it until it behaved better. A bully dog might pin a puppy down or alpha roll another dog, but that is aberrant behavior and the dog who acts like that is usually rejected and ignored by all other dogs. I am very much an advocate of +R (positive reinforcement) training, sometimes that leads to me butting heads with people, but I believe in it strongly enough to take the chance of 'ruffling feathers'.

kirama · 02-23-2010, 06:03 PM

One thing that I don't think I mentioned is that nipping is entirely normal for a puppy, it is how they learn bite inhibition. Pups have weak jaws and needle sharp teeth for just this reason, so they can get feedback on when they bite too hard without physically harming a litter mate. When they nip at a litter mate the litter mate will normally nip back (that doesn't mean you should bite the puppy back though) or it will move away from the puppy.

But puppies absolutely HAVE to learn how to soft mouth before they get their adult teeth, or you might end up with a dog that will end up ripping the flesh off of a child's face without even knowing he did anything wrong!

One way that you can help teach him that is by offering a closed fist and when you only feel lips and tongue-no teeth- immediately praise and reward the puppy with a small treat! As I said before if they nip hard- just ignore them that's like the punishment of all punishments to a young dog. Also, make sure that you are offering enough chew toys. My trainer suggests using a kong stuffed with kibble and a little peanut butter or yogurt for very 'nippy pups' they will be able to chew, but will learn to use the other parts of their mouth to get the food out of the toy. I hope that helps a little

Jac · 02-23-2010, 07:52 PM

Can you tell that we all care, deeply, about you and your puppy? I hope so...I do hope that comments come across as sincere concern (mine especially) because we really want to have you and your puppy adjust to this well...best wishes!

CindynEarl · 02-23-2010, 08:04 PM

I also have a "biter". As much as I'd like to say "nipper", it is more like biting during play time or even holding time. My dog looks alot like Ladybugs dog but I don't know how to post his pic. Anyway, "Cruiser" has learned a lot of tricks in the 3 weeks that I've had him, yet I can not seem to get him to stop biting. I try to hold his muzzle or nose and he just comes more aggressively. I try to shake a can with coins in it to make noise and he jumps to bite the can. I've gotten holes in my long robe, holes in my pj pants from him jumping up and biting and getting his sharp teeth caught in my cloths. Now I'm just trying the avoidance thing but feel guilty. When he is calm, he gets a log of my attention, if he bites, I leave the room. More advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

kirama · 02-23-2010, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CindynEarl

I also have a "biter". As much as I'd like to say "nipper", it is more like biting during play time or even holding time. My dog looks alot like Ladybugs dog but I don't know how to post his pic. Anyway, "Cruiser" has learned a lot of tricks in the 3 weeks that I've had him, yet I can not seem to get him to stop biting. I try to hold his muzzle or nose and he just comes more aggressively. I try to shake a can with coins in it to make noise and he jumps to bite the can. I've gotten holes in my long robe, holes in my pj pants from him jumping up and biting and getting his sharp teeth caught in my cloths. Now I'm just trying the avoidance thing but feel guilty. When he is calm, he gets a log of my attention, if he bites, I leave the room. More advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

You are doing the right thing by leaving the room if he bites, and rewarding him when he is not biting. But remember, puppies aren't nipping to be 'bad' they are hard wired to do this, it's just part of what they need to learn to become adult dogs that don't bite. I would suggest that you tether him and avoid walking close enough to him to give you an opportunity to grab your clothes while you are passing by. If he's tethered, you can also easily move out of his 'range' when he is biting without actually leaving the room.

**lindamarie** · 02-23-2010, 09:10 PM

What a great thread and so much great advice!! Team work!! I love it!
This is why we are all here and I love you guys!

I haven't much to add as it's all been said!

Quote:

One thing that I don't think I mentioned is that nipping is entirely normal for a puppy

VERY TRUE! It's just a matter of knowing how to get it under control w/o creating fear.

**MaxandMe** · 02-24-2010, 12:15 PM

Okay, the person that said WHEN THEY HOLD their puppy's MUZZLE the puppy gets MORE aggressive or lets say doesn't like it.

With my trainers......you can simulate what a mother dog does by LIGHTLY taking your halfway closed hand and lightly
stroking their muzzle as a mother dog will put their MOUTH over a puppy's to show the dominance or whatever WORD you'd like to
choose.

It may take time.....another thing is the tethering, along with sitting behind your puppy trying to run your hand LIGHTLy along
their muzzle, head and body. TEACHING them you're #1 and when they sit still aka "good settle" (or whateverpraise you like)
they get rewarded and more attention for staying calm.
you can also try having them sit next to you whileyou sit in a chair.

i have in 10 yrs with the same trainers seen wonders even with young puppies that were very dominant
eventually melt like putty and learn.

Biting, nipping, jumping...........all NORMAL behaviours
just as a toddler does similar things....all NORMAL

it's up to US though to give the right direction of guidance to what is and isn't acceptable WHILE practicing
love, patience, and a darn good sense of HUMOR

hang in there......puppies go through various stages which is all a part of growin up.

kirama · 02-24-2010, 12:31 PM

[quote="MaxandMe"]
With my trainers......you can simulate what a mother dog does by LIGHTLY taking your halfway closed hand and lightly
stroking their muzzle as a mother dog will put their MOUTH over a puppy's to show the dominance or whatever WORD you'd like to
choose. /quote]
Nothing wrong with that, it's a nice calming technique too.

ladybird · 02-24-2010, 04:47 PM

Thank you all so much for your help, don't know what I would do without this forum. I am using all the advice and will not give up (yet anyway),
problem I had tonight was paying so much attention on his behaviour that my 6 yr daughter got jealous and upset that I didn't love her anymore.

kids, the pressure!

I have another question, He had his 2nd vaccination on Monday and the vet told me it would be another 10 days till he can go out for walks

will it be a crime if it was earlier, i just think that the walk will not only wear him out but stimulate him too.

02-23-2010, 03:39 PM	#1 (permalink)
ladybird Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 31	Aggression I am trying very hard to stop my 10 wk old puppy from biting my hands, I have bites and scratches every where. I have tried saying no and pushing him away, but he just thinks i'm playing and comes back again for more. I have tried holding his mouth shut and saying 'shut' but he gets aggressive towards me. My husband feels that holding him down by the scruff of his neck, like an alfa male would do will help. An ideas please.

02-23-2010, 03:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
KingstonTodd Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,005	Re: Aggression I usually advice the more gentle methods first (ignoring, diversion with an appropriate toy, loud noise) before more agressive things. Be patient with these methods and give them time to work. Also, exercise is key. A tired puppy is better behaved and you should not resort to more harsh training methds because a puppy has too much energy pent up from lack of an outlet (not saying this is you, just being complete in my answer). I have used the snout hold and scruff hold and it does get the point across if the other methods have failed. Be carefull to never hurt or elicit fear in your puppy. It is about communicating that the bahaviour is not acceptable and must stop. If you do anything like a scruff hold, do it quickly, and let go quickly, dont restrain them for long, just long enough to say "NO BITE, BAD PUPPY", and then let go and walk away. It is about a message and not fear. If you restrain them for longer and it becomes a struggle then the message and the link to the behaviour is lost and the puppy is only learing that you are somebody who makes them afraid and upset. If you ever saw how harsh yet how quick and short lived a correction from a mama dog is with a 8-10 week old puppy that is doing something she doesnt like, you would really see how ignoring and a noise may not be enough sometimes. Some puppies dont pick up on the subtle hints.

02-23-2010, 04:35 PM	#3 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: Aggression I agree with Todd...and when I use a snout hold it is really not a hold because the puppy can pull out and it is not a clamp...but more of a suggestion, sort of like when you put your finger to your lips and shush a child...no force, just a reminder. Any time you use aggressive tactics, especially with a puppy, you are training with fear and trying to treat aggression with aggression. I am 100% against Cesar Milan methods... http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyl ... whisperer/ I strongly suggest that you learn clicker training... http://www.clickertraining.com/ your puppy is at the ideal age for clicker training and it can be so successful. Please remember that your puppy is only 10 weeks old. You would not grab a naughty toddler by the throat and hold it on the ground to prove that you are the boss, would you? Does anyone in your family play tug of war with the puppy? Is it sometimes okay to wrestle with the puppy? Does anyone get on the floor and play keep away or tug games? If so, this is encouraging the biting and overly excited play...if not, then the puppy needs to learn alternative behaviors. I have a very energetic girl and she plays extremely rough with the other dogs...but when she would try to play rough with me, I always seem to get calming results by reaching down and scratching her chest. This has worked with all of my dogs...and while I do that, I gently say, good settle, good quiet...and that, together with teaching her how to sit on command, has helped us a lot. You may be trying to get the cart before the horse. At 10 weeks, you can easily teach a puppy to gently take treats from you and to sit on command. Once you teach him the basics, build on that behavior...when he gets wild, tell him to sit...and be sure to reward him. Teach him to stay, and reward him. If you get those behaviors down pat, you can put him in a sit stay and walk away when he is wild. He will soon learn the connection. I sincerely believe in clicker training and there are good sites that give basic information...but more importantly, you might want to establish puppy kindergarten in your area. This will give your puppy some safe play time with other dogs where he will learn bite inhibition. These are some good articles on puppy aggression: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=1128 http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=1743 http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=2882 http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=1740

02-23-2010, 04:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: Aggression One other thing, he is very young, but there could be a thyroid issue if he continues to display aggression: http://itsfortheanimals.com/THYROID-ARTICLES.HTM

02-23-2010, 04:38 PM	#5 (permalink)
KingstonTodd Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,005	Re: Aggression How old was the puppy when you got it?

02-23-2010, 05:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
ladybird Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 31	Re: Aggression He was 8 weeks old when we got him. Thanks for all the great advice I will take it all on board and let you know how I get on.

02-23-2010, 05:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
kirama Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 858	Re: Aggression put the pup on a tether so you can get away from him without him following you. When he nips at you, YELP! REALLY LOUD like one of his littermates would if he bit them too hard. Immediately turn your back on the pup and walk away. Wait a few seconds, return to the pup and pet the puppy as normal, if he starts nipping- do the same thing again. You may need to do it 20 times at first, but he will 'get it'. You are simply letting him know that when he does certain things, you will not pay attention to him. Among a family unit of dogs- THAT is how dogs treat each other- a dominant male would NOT pin down a puppy, he would turn his back on the puppy and ignore it until it behaved better. A bully dog might pin a puppy down or alpha roll another dog, but that is aberrant behavior and the dog who acts like that is usually rejected and ignored by all other dogs. I am very much an advocate of +R (positive reinforcement) training, sometimes that leads to me butting heads with people, but I believe in it strongly enough to take the chance of 'ruffling feathers'. __________________

02-23-2010, 06:03 PM	#8 (permalink)
kirama Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 858	Re: Aggression One thing that I don't think I mentioned is that nipping is entirely normal for a puppy, it is how they learn bite inhibition. Pups have weak jaws and needle sharp teeth for just this reason, so they can get feedback on when they bite too hard without physically harming a litter mate. When they nip at a litter mate the litter mate will normally nip back (that doesn't mean you should bite the puppy back though) or it will move away from the puppy. But puppies absolutely HAVE to learn how to soft mouth before they get their adult teeth, or you might end up with a dog that will end up ripping the flesh off of a child's face without even knowing he did anything wrong! One way that you can help teach him that is by offering a closed fist and when you only feel lips and tongue-no teeth- immediately praise and reward the puppy with a small treat! As I said before if they nip hard- just ignore them that's like the punishment of all punishments to a young dog. Also, make sure that you are offering enough chew toys. My trainer suggests using a kong stuffed with kibble and a little peanut butter or yogurt for very 'nippy pups' they will be able to chew, but will learn to use the other parts of their mouth to get the food out of the toy. I hope that helps a little __________________

02-23-2010, 07:52 PM	#9 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Re: Aggression Can you tell that we all care, deeply, about you and your puppy? I hope so...I do hope that comments come across as sincere concern (mine especially) because we really want to have you and your puppy adjust to this well...best wishes!

02-23-2010, 08:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
CindynEarl Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: WA: Seattle area Posts: 224	Re: Aggression I also have a "biter". As much as I'd like to say "nipper", it is more like biting during play time or even holding time. My dog looks alot like Ladybugs dog but I don't know how to post his pic. Anyway, "Cruiser" has learned a lot of tricks in the 3 weeks that I've had him, yet I can not seem to get him to stop biting. I try to hold his muzzle or nose and he just comes more aggressively. I try to shake a can with coins in it to make noise and he jumps to bite the can. I've gotten holes in my long robe, holes in my pj pants from him jumping up and biting and getting his sharp teeth caught in my cloths. Now I'm just trying the avoidance thing but feel guilty. When he is calm, he gets a log of my attention, if he bites, I leave the room. More advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

02-24-2010, 12:15 PM	#13 (permalink)
MaxandMe Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Upstate, NY Posts: 15,103	Re: Aggression Okay, the person that said WHEN THEY HOLD their puppy's MUZZLE the puppy gets MORE aggressive or lets say doesn't like it. With my trainers......you can simulate what a mother dog does by LIGHTLY taking your halfway closed hand and lightly stroking their muzzle as a mother dog will put their MOUTH over a puppy's to show the dominance or whatever WORD you'd like to choose. It may take time.....another thing is the tethering, along with sitting behind your puppy trying to run your hand LIGHTLy along their muzzle, head and body. TEACHING them you're #1 and when they sit still aka "good settle" (or whateverpraise you like) they get rewarded and more attention for staying calm. you can also try having them sit next to you whileyou sit in a chair. i have in 10 yrs with the same trainers seen wonders even with young puppies that were very dominant eventually melt like putty and learn. Biting, nipping, jumping...........all NORMAL behaviours just as a toddler does similar things....all NORMAL it's up to US though to give the right direction of guidance to what is and isn't acceptable WHILE practicing love, patience, and a darn good sense of HUMOR hang in there......puppies go through various stages which is all a part of growin up. __________________ *Annmarie, Max,& Peanut* "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." Anatole France uncondtional love: what a dog always does for us and humans strive to do but can we?

02-24-2010, 12:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
kirama Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 858	Re: Aggression [quote="MaxandMe"] With my trainers......you can simulate what a mother dog does by LIGHTLY taking your halfway closed hand and lightly stroking their muzzle as a mother dog will put their MOUTH over a puppy's to show the dominance or whatever WORD you'd like to choose. /quote] Nothing wrong with that, it's a nice calming technique too. __________________

02-24-2010, 04:47 PM	#15 (permalink)
ladybird Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 31	Re: Aggression Thank you all so much for your help, don't know what I would do without this forum. I am using all the advice and will not give up (yet anyway), problem I had tonight was paying so much attention on his behaviour that my 6 yr daughter got jealous and upset that I didn't love her anymore. kids, the pressure! I have another question, He had his 2nd vaccination on Monday and the vet told me it would be another 10 days till he can go out for walks will it be a crime if it was earlier, i just think that the walk will not only wear him out but stimulate him too.

Remove Advertisements Sponsored Links
Labradoodle Forums Advertisement