Aggression

[kirama]

Originally Posted by ladybird

Thank you all so much for your help, don't know what I would do without this forum. I am using all the advice and will not give up (yet anyway),
problem I had tonight was paying so much attention on his behaviour that my 6 yr daughter got jealous and upset that I didn't love her anymore. kids, the pressure!

I have another question, He had his 2nd vaccination on Monday and the vet told me it would be another 10 days till he can go out for walks will it be a crime if it was earlier, i just think that the walk will not only wear him out but stimulate him too.

I think you should listen to the vet, better safe than sorry

[Jac]

Gosh, I hate to be a downer but I agree with the vet...you have waited this long, it would be a shame to have your pup get sick during the last phase of his vaccination schedule.

You can take him out in a shopping cart or stroller, that way you can still socialize him without his feet touching the ground.

[CindynEarl]

Ladybird, your pup looks like my Cruiser and I have the same problem. I ended up getting a muzzle. If he can be gentle and not bite, he can go without it. But if he bites, I put the muzzle on. Wait 5 minutes and take it off, repeat. I also had to get the muzzle for him to prevent him from trying to eat rocks and pine cones. He is at the age 13m where he puts everything in his mouth and I'm afraid he will choke. It is helping. Also what is helping if the avoidance another member suggested. If we enter his area and he bites, he gets no attention. We return in 5 minutes and if he bites again, we leave. If not, we stay and give him attention. I understand it is natural for a puppy, thanks to the smart members here.
Say, I have a question for you: Your puppy is about the same age as mine (mine was born Nov 24th 09), how much does yours weigh and do you know how big he will get? Mine is 16.5 pounds and 15 inches tall already. I'm just curious how bit he may get. He also eats like a horse but I just put down half cup of dry and quarter cup of wet 3 times a day. Don't know when its ok to feed just twice a day.
Also, is your a shedder at all? Just curious since your looks so much like mine. Does your have a long straight tai? Thanks for endulging all my tedious questions. Cindy

[ladybird]

Still having trouble with his biting, my hands are so bitten and scratched they are sore, I have had enough. I have tried walking away when he bites my feet, but he follows me, then I say no loudly, smack his nose saying NO, restrain him on a lead (whilst in the park). Don't know what else to do.

[kirama]

Originally Posted by ladybird

Still having trouble with his biting, my hands are so bitten and scratched they are sore, I have had enough. I have tried walking away when he bites my feet, but he follows me, then I say no loudly, smack his nose saying NO, restrain him on a lead (whilst in the park). Don't know what else to do.

Rather than smacking him, which will probably have either no effect, or a negative effect- why not try to contact a CPDT trainer in your area who might be having puppy classes? I'm pretty sure that with a little professional help you will be able to resolve this. http://www.ccpdt.org/index.php?optio...tree&Itemid=16

[CindynEarl]

I"m still also having trouble with Cruiser biting. He broke the skin a couple of times. He never growls, so I take it as an accident that he was playing. I have not yet taken him to classes because he has to have his rabies shot and he is not 6 mos. yet plus he still needs a second dose of dewormer and I don't want to give rabies with de-wormer because I'm not sure if it is safe. One time when I took him out to his dog run to go potty, after he was finished, he decided to run in circles the length of his dog run. He was playing, but then in the midst of his playing he luunged at me and I heard his teeth snap. Not sure what to make of that. One of the members sent me the sites below from a vets column and it said if a pup breaks the skin, it may be a concern and a reason to give it to someone else before the pup gets too old, but that person may also have touble and have it put down. I will try to get Cruiser into pup classes because it really sounds like it is the answer.I refuse to give Cruiser up. Ladybird, did you try the classes? Did you try a muzzle each time he bites and remove it when he calms down? Just wondering. Did you contact the breeder?

[Jac]

Honestly, I think that you may be ignoring our advice and doing things your way and not getting good results...this is likely NOT your dog's fault. Puppies are playful, they have sharp teeth and those teeth and nails will cut skin.
I believe that the references to a dog breaking skin is referring to an intentional and aggressive bite and that the only mention of giving a dog away or euthanisa is used as a warning, to get you to try the OTHER GOOD things listed in the articles. Also, they are talking about breeds that are instinctively aggressive or poorly bred. Doodles are gentle dogs, for the most part, and unless the puppy was poorly bred or raised in an abusive situation, he will respond to love and kindness. He will want to please you.
I don't understand, Cindy, why you have to wait for a puppy to have a rabies shot before training classes, but if that is true, you can give rabies shots at 14 weeks. You can give rabies shots with wroming. If a dog is severely affected with parasites, you may want to wait, but it is not the worming meds that cause the problem, it is the weakened immune system.
You must get training...this is not something that will go away until YOU are taught how to handle your dogs...it is not a matter of the dogs being bad, but a matter of the handler not knowing how to handle a dog who has been left to his own devices too long.
I am not saying this to be judgmental...but because I know how easy it can be to let time slip away without classes or training sessions and before you know it you have a much more difficult problem.
Your pups are both young enough that they will respond to training. It doesn't sound like you are able to get the type of advice you need from books or from this forum.
You need to learn how to train.
We have tried to give you advice, but if you don't get training for your pups it will only get worse. Nothing said on this forum will be helpful. The hardest part of training a puppy is taking the time to do it consistently and correctly.
I posted several articles at the beginning of this thread and from all of the good advice given, I am disappointed that what stayed with you was the remark about a dog breaking skin and the last resort options (which I do not agree with)...I posted the articles because I thought that they gave good advice about training and consistency.
Your dog might be ill or have a thyroid problem (if the aggression is really that, aggression) but if your puppy is just playing too roughly and you are getting scratches ...yes, you will bleed. You bleed when you are scratched by a rose bush too...but it just happens, the rose is not to blame.
Please stop looking at your puppies as demonic...they are just puppies.
When a child misbehaves, the parents are usually not in control...the same with puppies...you have to take control of the situation (that does NOT mean that you have to be abusive or controlling, but that you have to be wise, knowledgable and loving) and the only way you can do that is through training.
Please, for the sake of your puppies and the sake of your emotions, take your puppies to puppy kindergarten and then keep taking classes. If you are consistently working with your puppy and you still have problems, talk it over with the trainer or a behaviorist.
If you feel that you can't go to classes, hire a trainer or behaviorist to come to your home.
If you really believe that your puppy is aggressive, then a behaviorist is necessary.
If your puppy is simply being a playful, albeit too rough, puppy then you have to get training to learn how to stop the behavior.
But I will tell you, without a doubt, that muzzles and slapping are NOT the answer. You will only succeed in making your dog fearful and reactionary. Your dog has to feel safe with you. Otherwise he will learn to protect himself...
Frankly, I am quite concerned that you are mentioning the frustration levels, the muzzles and the slapping...the dog's behavior...but are not addressing YOUR behavior or the things you are doing to learn. By saying this I am not talking about walking away or restraining with a leash or muzzle or smacking...but what are YOU doing to LEARN how to work with your puppy? How often are you working with your puppy...alone, not with others around...and are you using positive reinforcement or alpha-roll behaviro? These things are important and without knowing what you are actually doing (on a consistent basis) we really have a tough time trying to help. We want to help...but the best help we can offer, at this point is the advice to get professional training before your puppy gets any older.
Please, take the good advice that has already been given. And if that advice is not enough, then please, get some help for your puppy.

[CindynEarl]

Jac, thanks for your response. I actually can't wait to put Cruiser in puppy classes. I have an appt. at the vets on April 1st for his last deworming med plus his rabies and I will call petsmart and organize those puppy classes. I am convinced that is the last thing Cruiser will need to watch that puppy biting. I am looking forward to it. Thanks again ya all for your responses. Ladybird, if you lived closer to me, I'd surely take your pup for several weeks to help you. He is adorable!

[CindynEarl]

Just to be clear, when I said the "last" thing. I meant everything else he has done well on. Now after puppy classes being the final training class, Cruiser will be the most perfect pet!

[CindynEarl]

Jac, you are not ok with the muzzle portion at all? I felt it actually did curb some of his biting behavior for a while. I only uses it in the house when he got to playing too rough and never left if on for more than 5 minutes and never had to use if more than once or twice a day,unless he was eating his gravel during potty time in the dog run. If you are really dead set against it, I will get rid of it. Just double checking and wanting me to be clear that I am not using it as a replacement for my owning training.

[MaxandMe]

Personally, I would not muzzle a puppy as it's like a doctor giving antibiotics without fully checking you out thus it may cause more problems
or NOT fix the problem at all.

This forum is great helping out but it's limited in help which is where a vet and professional trainers are the next avenue.

Puppies .....like toddlers.......all go through various stages a normal part of growing up.

Biting: some puppies nip alot others don't, some jump alot others don't, some potty train quickly where others can take 5 to 6mos to train
BUT
part of it is the puppies makeup and the OTHER PART is where we come in. It's a teamwork effort.

Max.........teaching him not to lick Alivia and teaching Alivia NOT to feed and/or throw food to the floor for him and peanut
wanna know how long it took to teach this to STOP?

a few days BUT it took almost every bit of energy on my part........saying NO a million times, then acting like BARNEY with Praise,
telling my doodle to LIE DOWN and sitting here 3 to 5 times a day.
THE LICK PART WAS EASIER: I REFUSED TO LET MAX have any attention. Got up walked away, my daughter picked up Alivia and did same



sooooooooo it's work, as it doesn't happen overnight and MAX is going to be 4yrs old so teaching him is quicker than a puppy
HOWEVER IT TOOK ME years of training to get where I am. MY DOODLES need REFRESHER training if i slack off for a few months.

DOODLES aren't hard dogs.........they are SMART DOGS that starts as a puppy that will outsmart you the second they can.
NOT intentional,spiteful etc.........NOW I NEVER PLAYED GAMES that involved chasing me, tug of war etc--WHY??? I needed to be a LEADER
and NOT a littermate.
(kinda like being a MOTHER and NOT a best friend when raising my 3 kids)

NOW with my doodles as puppies i played FETCH while teaching DROP IT, OR gave toys when they tried to chew a shoe.
I even so much as re-enacted a crime so i could catch them and properly teach them what isn't acceptable and what is.

NOW WITH say 9 week to 14 weeks OLD puppies are like a baby and not totally a toddler so training lightly is a must.
GENTLY training ....soft voice....and repetition. AND NOTE : SOMETIMES WHEN A PUPPY growls, ACTS HYPER like jumping too much,
biting, etc WELL it can also MEAN put your PUPPY IN FOR A NAP!!!!
PUPPIES are supposed to be sleeping alot..........YES just like a baby. Peanut and BEAU were like i described.
they also were testing limits as they would in a litter which = LEARNING what they can and can't do.


Peanut was a big nipper.......I learned via watching puppy training classes that some puppies were dominant etc and/or didn't have any training.

SIT the dog in front of you facing away, put your hand like a letter C and softly stroke their muzzle as a MOM DOG puts her mouth over a puppy's
YOU are showing the puppy a way of settling and that you are the LEADER not the puppy.
and THEN you continue to stroke her head, and finally body........BUT if they NIP???? start all over again.

I did this for 5 to 10min a day about 4 to 5 times a day.......the outcome? I had a puppy that stopped nipping, learned she'd get attention
when calm, If she had a hard time settling then sometimes she got that nap right then and there, and NOW I HAVE a 3yr old PEANUT WHO when
she wants to be calm and get attention sits by my side and leans into me. I LOVE IT!


Raising MAX was almost too easy as he was ultra calm ...........PEANUT was a lewis/clark gal with too many quarters in her!! i swore if she could she be walking on the ceiling BUT WITH TONS OF PATIENCE, daily training sessions(short though ) WOW she blossomed and OH ALSO learned after settling down
we did KISS KISS on my Chin/Jaw area when she wanted to nip due to teething later on. BUT I also kept on hand bones and kongs to chew and my body
all parts were OFF LIMITS for mouthing, chewing, nipping and jumping.


Why did i take the time to type a short novel?????????? to share I went through this too, PEANUT EVEN growled .......OH NO!!!
SHE wasn't aggressive.......she was Dead Tired, would get a swift quick firm (not rough) correction from me and if kept up
then NAP TIME............ever see a kid cry kick scream in a foodstore? hmmmmm okay kid was fed, given attention, diaper changed.
NOW what? OHhhhhhh yeah, mabye a nap is in order for rest, growing and okay for everyone tohave a break

I swear raising a puppy and a baby/toddler are so similar. Alivia at my ex's home with tons of people, love , toys , 3 pugs and more
they swore she would not LISTEN to stay off the stairs and feed dogs etc

All day long that's all my daughter and I did, say NO and REDIRECT Alivia's attention to where she learned on 3rd day to scoot back down OFF stairs
and we did the tons of praise and silly happy dances clapping. ALIVIA is now safe, happy and my EX;s family is being consistent as they saw
the difference and wanted to know how they could help.

soooooooooo I am FAR from an expert, not a professional trainer, BUT i have fostered dogs on and off for over 25yrs, I have been to a place
for OB training for dogs hmmmmm lost count how many times i have brought dogs there for 12yrs YES i even did foster dogs there too besides mine

i also wished this forum was around years ago........BUT when I joined i read alot of posts EVENTUALLY COVERING 4 years of POSTS
why??? because there are over 200,000 POSTS with tons of replies, links to great articles, videos and others in same situations as us
AND we have breeders on here, people who do/did professional training or did all types of training with their dogs, others that raised and helped train
dogs for service work and so much MORE.

Muzzles are good when used for right reasons........but for a puppy, i feel like it's more of a quick solution that doesn't solve the problem the
moment you take off the muzzle. MUZZLES are more for when all other training methods don't work for usually aggressive DOGS not puppies.

PUPPIES ARE RARELY aggressive.....puppies YES can be more alpha, dominant OR haven't had the type of Training geared towards their personality
which in that case a private trainer works better than classes.

IF anyone could have been here one day when peanut at 6 mos growled and bit my son over a bone which he didn't know thinnking she had something
else she could swallow and be harmed so he went to remove it.
GUESS WHAT???/ I TOLD MY SON, SLIDE her across the floor NOT TOSS ........he did
PEANUT never ever growled bit over a bone again...........OH we did bone trainging till peanut was almost sick of given a bone!
knick knack paddy whack give a dog a bone.......and this old woman got back her sweet dog home!!

PEANUT was not and is NOT aggressive........she did what dogs do, BUT she had to learn the rules and i tell ya training some dogs
can wear you down to the bone but in the end it's all worth it!!! I LOVE training and just starting doing Formal OB training sessions daily
again in my home.

Training= bonding, being attuned to one another, giving a dog direction he/she needs, utilizes patience, love and a sense of humor.


PS IF ANYONE EVER CLICKS ON THE LINK BELOW MY NAME.....THERE ARE 20 ARTICLES TO READ THAT ARE HONEST, FUNNY BUT ALSO ADMITS TRIALS/TRIBULATIONS AND REAL LIFE WITH DOGS, TEENAGERS AND LIFE'S SURPRISES INTERMIXED WITH THE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE OFA DOG.

[CindynEarl]

Yes that is a great link with many cool pics. Ok, sounds like the muzzle needs to go. So I have an additional question. When taking Cruiser for walks or when he is outside period, he likes to put anything in his mouth such as bark, stones, etc. I am afaid he will choke on something. Am I being overprotective? I try to keep his head pulled up so he can't eat anything.

[MaxandMe]

CINDY no better time than now to start teaching the DROP IT command

you might say it almost 4000 times til they learn Oh, i can't eat rocks.....but they learn

I used to stand at the front door turn around and say OKAY guys, Drop it. Peanut would drop the stick or stone she had in her mouth into my hand
and Max would too

[CindynEarl]

If you can find a good behavior specialist in your area Ladybird, I'm willing to chip in at least $20 towards it. It is all I have right now. Or put it towards classes.

[ladybird]

Originally Posted by CindynEarl

Jac, thanks for your response. I actually can't wait to put Cruiser in puppy classes. I have an appt. at the vets on April 1st for his last deworming med plus his rabies and I will call petsmart and organize those puppy classes. I am convinced that is the last thing Cruiser will need to watch that puppy biting. I am looking forward to it. Thanks again ya all for your responses. Ladybird, if you lived closer to me, I'd surely take your pup for several weeks to help you. He is adorable!

I am looking into puppy classes, and no I live in the uk so nowhere near you, but thanks for the offer.