When to spay/neuter????

[KingstonTodd]

True that deciduous base narrow canines MUST come out around 10 weeks. This intervention can save a bad bite by making more room for the adult canines to come in. Adult canines come in slightly lingually (on the tongue side) to the deciduous canines, and if the deciduous teeth are narrow they must be gone for the adult teeth to have any chance to come in the correct location.

Also, correctly placed deciduous canines that fail to fall out, called retained deciduous teeth, will make the adult canines come in as base narrow since they come in slightly lingually, and the retained teeth are in the way, which pushes the adult teeth narrow. If this is noticed as the adult teeth come in, at 4-5 months, the deciduous teeth can be removed then at the time of spay and hope it is not too late for the adult teeth to correct, but you would have to catch it very early as the adult teeth just start to erupt and know what you are looking for. This is one reason to spay/neuter before 6 months, so the vet can get a good look in the mouth earlier, around 4 months, to see how things are going.

[zhtmom]

Thank you to everyone that responded to my question.
I still haven't made a decision I have spoken with several vets in my area and none of them spay/neuter before 4 mos. The majority of the reasons were, age mostly, one said something about knee problems for larger dogs later in life and one mentioned the tooth thing mentioned in one of the posts here. Our next step is asking for the breeders vet information so we can ask him/her some questions about their philosophy on this choice.
Once again - many thanks! I am sure it is one of many questions to come from us.

P.S. - This forum is so much fun to visit. I love looking at the sweet pics of all the dogs. Can't visit too often-I look up and don't know where the hour has gone!!!

[Jac]

I am glad we can help! Please do ask any questions you have...we love hearing from you!

[Lucky Me]

Was checking out that new site I found...the great Dane Lady. And she said...
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/s ... mation.htm

She has a ton of info on this site!!!
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles.htm

[Jac]

Well, while that IS good information, there is no way to know where she is getting it. Sorry...I just think (no, I know) that many breeders repeat stories they have been told by other breeders and none of these stories are documented.

In fact, her argument is really in conflict...she talks about the danger of early spay/neuter based on (in the female) incontinance...but she says that when the spay is done and the dog is so big, the danger of "bleed out" is life threatening. So, seems to me that the argument for ESN for a very large breed would be logical, to avoid bleed out.

hahaha...how am I doing as Devil's advocate?

And, I find it odd that she talks about her experience in breeding that early neutering causes the male to change growth patterns, not developing properly...but has she ever DONE early neutering or is she talking about those stories she has heard? If it is from stories, how many early neuter procedures has she followed? How many had this growth problem and how many have not? Surely, not EVERY dog had this problem...

I just take these things with a grain of salt unless it rings true based on my own experience and information...and while I believe that this is a very good and caring breeder, and I will even say that she may be right...where is her supporting documentation, studies and death records? She sites "her own experience"...which is valuable, to a point...but "my own experience" with early spay is that I lost a puppy...enough for me not to do it again, but certainly not enough for me to say that this is common and should be avoided.

Now, just so everyone knows...I absolutely respect and care for Judi...she is the best resource gatherer I know! So, I am not saying any of this to oppose Judi...only to say that until I have more concrete evidence (the law school grad in me) I just can't buy this...

But, Judi...keep that info coming! It is good to keep the debate going because we need to know and understand as much as we can in such an important discussion.

[Lucky Me]

No offense taken...... like to play the devil's advocate myself!
I just like to weigh in both sides, and make my own choice.
I am not one to agree to everything like a bobble-headed dog in a back car window....

[Jac]

Originally Posted by Lucky Me

No offense taken...... like to play the devil's advocate myself!
I just like to weigh in both sides, and make my own choice.
I am not one to agree to everything like a bobble-headed dog in a back car window....

hahahaha...that is why we are such good friends!

[TashyandOllie]

My breeders neuter at a specific weight, not age because their pups are ready for pick up at 8 weeks and you HAVE to have them neutered. (Good Labradoodle breeders can be rare here. In fact any Labradoodles are too. They also do this so no pups end up in the RSPCA or are neglected from unwanted pregnancy.) They neuter them as soon as they are over 1 kg. Mine was the runt of the litter but they did have him up to speed so I could pick him up neutered. He was neutered at about 5-6 weeks.

They have lost 1 puppy in their 11 years I think it is of breeding, and it sin't due to desexing

[KingstonTodd]

what is the rational to 1kg? Why not wait to 1.5kg and 7 weeks old? A week makes a huge difference at that age.

[TashyandOllie]

To be honest with you, I have no idea! Hey it could be that, we were just told that "as soon as the pup is over 1 kg we can neuter him." So I just assumed he was around 1 kg and they rang and said when he was inbetween 5 and 6 weeks.

[SamsonsMom]

The Great Dane lady had some good advice, but MAN the bottom half of the article made a spay/neuter sound like it had so many complications. There are just two things I'd like to comment on:

She said to make sure that the vets office staff KNEW to support the head and neck at all times and to ensure it did not "dangle" off the table during surgery.

I used to volunteer at a spay/neuter clinic for our local animal shelter. EVERY dog's head, regardless of the dogs size, was very supported on the table. I was the tech who monitored the administration of aethesia (sp?) and made sure the dogs head was supported. In my experience, no dog's head would ever be allowed to dangle off a table. Upon moving the dog off the table, at least 3 techs would help to make sure the dog was fully supported, or more than 3 techs if the dogs was unusually heavy or a massive large breed dog.

She also mentioned about ensuring your dog is check warm. Again, only in my experience at the Spay/Neuter clinic, this is also always done. The dogs are not just put on cold cement and left. But instead wrapped in a blanket, and the spay/neuter clinic I worked at, there was 1 volunteer per 2 dogs making sure that the dogs came out of everything okay, and had someone there to pet them while they woke up.

This was a very low budget operation, mostly ran on volunteers and one vet who performed the surgeries. The clinic spayed/neutered on average 30-40 dogs, and about 20 cats per scheduled clinic dates. No pet every had any complications mentioned by the Great dane lady that are listed above.

[Lucky Me]

With one of the trips I made for the mini-pin I had, that had the broken leg, when I went to pick him up, they gave him to me ice cold and very groggy still. They said he would be normal quickly. I took my jacket off & wrapped him up on the way home. At home, he still didn't change, so I wrapped him up in a fleece blanket and sat outside in the warm sun in an attempt to get him warm and also get fresh air to him. At one point I sat there bawling as it started to scare me & I was so frustrated. It took a good hour and a half until I was comfortable with him being okay. This practice was run by a lone Dr. & 2 assistants..... needless to say, I gave them an earful later!
This is more common than we probably know in small practices..... sure hope I am wrong.

[Jac]

There are many things that we just "expect" our vets to know and do...one is to CARE about the animals...and to do what is right for the circumstances.

Unfortunatley, that is not always the case. Judi, that is just scary...and so wrong! The time that I lost my 8 week old puppy, she had a cardiac arrest during spay (I no longer do ESN) and the vet did not monitor her at all...not before, during or after the spay...even when she revived her from the cardiac arrest...then she told me to take the pup to a vet (nearly 3 hours away) and that was it...I stopped at a closer vet just to stablize the pup...they were furious at what the other vet did...they took her and worked on her for hours to stabalize her and then wrapped her in a huge quilt and said that keeping her warm was critical...not to let her get cold! Then they called the emergency vet hospital, where we were going, and stayed in constant contact with them, sharing information and getting them ready. When we arrived, they were waiting for us at the door. The little darling didn't make it, after a week of struggling we had to admit defeat and let her little spirit go...but the second vet and the new hospital taught me how horrible the first vet had been!

So, it is wise to ask all the questions...what do you do to keep them warm and help them come out of anesthesia? Do you monitor them constantly? If an emergency happens, that you are not expecting, what do you do?

We could have had a vet ambulance come to get my puppy...it might have made a difference. But my vet didn't know or care. And, I was too scared and worried and terrified to do anything except pray!

[SamsonsMom]

WOW I am so sorry to hear about those situations. That is HORRIBLE Judi & Jac! I guess I've been very lucky. From what I witnessed first hand, the vet, techs and volunteers were all very caring....and when Samson was neutered, the vet tech called to tell me he was out of surgery but was still asleep and than called again to let me know I could come get him because he woke up completely. Here you can't even pick up your dog until about 2 hours after the surgery and that's if everything goes smoothly. That's so they can continue to monitor them even afterwards.

Always good to call your vet, ask questions, and make sure you're comfortable.

[Moe]

Sometimes the vet's don't agree either. We got a puppy a few months ago that needed surgery at 7 weeks for an inguinal hernia. It was pretty severe and could not wait until the pup was older. My vet suggested having the puppy spayed while she was under. The breeder's vet refused saying he prefers to wait until 6 months. Since the surgery was being done by the breeder's vet she did not get spayed.