F1B BACK TO A POODLE

[M&Tdoodles]

BREEDING AN F1B BACK TO A POODLE WILL YIELD?
I WAS TOLD YOU CAN DO THIS BUT IM THINKING THIS WOULD PRODUCE MORE POODLE LIKE DOGS RATHER THAN A COMBINATION OF LAB & POODLE. I WAS TOLD THAT YOU CAN DO THIS TO IMPROVE THE COATS AND YOU WILL STILL GET THE LAB MIXED IN TO THE LINE BECAUSE LABS ARE THE DOMINANT PIECE OF THE PUZZLE SORT TO SPEAK.

WAS THIS PERSON TALKING OUT OF HIS A__ __ OR IS THIS FOR REAL.

DOES ANYONE HAVE THIS AS AN EXPERIENCE TO SHARE WITH ME ?

AND DO YOU HAVE PICS TO SHOW OF THE LITTER AS PUPS AND AS ADULTS?

[Lucky Me]

Too much poodle I would think!!!
We had a discussion awhile back on this...an F1b to a Golden doodle would be a better coat improvement. I would think that that combo would give too many wooly coats.
Jac....
Any pictures of your NARS? How are their coats coming along? Silky? Shiney? PLEASE post some pics!!!

[Jac]

Hi Judi,
Thanks for asking...but none of my puppy families has sent pictures!
Honestly, they did resemble my F1B Labradoodle coats, fleece.

Martha...just to make my comment public...(Martha sent a PM to me regarding this) I want to state that although I would prefer to use a curly coated (wool) F1B, I personally would not shy away from this mix IF I felt it was necessary to improve the coat.

I know that the ALAA and some breeders are adamant about not adding in too much Poodle...so I just want to say that my consideration would be to improve the coat or other trait and NOT to be considered for a breed standard. (Meaning that my goal would be to produce good pets, not breeding stock.)

I guess that what I am saying is that the breed standards are not that compelling for me...but the end result of the puppy type I am helping to produce. My main goal is to produce a healthy, intelligent puppy and if I can improve the coat, I will try. If not, I will not likely breed the dog. But first, and always, I look at the temperament and health.

[Doodlesville]

I did that breeding ONE time,,Lab is actually the dominant gene and i ended up with some really NICE coats on the pups ,,one looked just like a lab,,(still have him ,sons dog) but he doesnt shed so thats a good thing

[M&Tdoodles]

Thanks nancy & jac for your input on this topic, nancy could you post any pics of your dog that you are speaking about. I guess it is true...
learning new things every day...love this forum...thank you again...
xoxoxo
m

[Doodlesville]

I will try to get on
i cant find the one i had sorry

[Lucky Me]

Nancy....
What kind of coat did the F1B that you bred to the Poodle have? Was it more of a "labby" F1b?

[Doodlesville]

They ranged in coat types, from very wavy curly and labby(had 1 he looks just like a lab, a tad bit more coat w/a little curl to it)

[Lucky Me]

No Nancy...not the pups coats, the coat of the F1B that was bred to the poodle to get those coats.

[MaxandMe]

WOULDN"T the temperament of the Poodle being used a main consideration as to keeping enough DOODLE in that cross but at same time would help out the coat quality.

NOW genetics say/theorize that the reason a f1 GD (ie: like peanut)
has a very low and/or non-shedding coat similar to F1B LD's is that
the long hair of goldens and breeding with poodle produces higher incidence of the poodle coat tendency OVER lab's (short haired coats) with poodles. thus the reason f1 LD's seem to have higher rate of low to moderate shedding and/or possiblly inconsisenty coats that are at times also labby to scruffy and not always curly to wavy (like Gd's ,f1b or higher aka multi-gens)

NOW is the reason some mult-gen have had inconsistent coats with LD's?
balancing poodle coat tendencies and lab/poodle traits. It's hard to predict? thus, temperament should be greatly looked at in order to balance out health issues, coat and personality?

does breeding a F1B to a poodle produce a doodle with higher grooming maintenance similar to that of a poodle? or isn't there enough results to give documentation?' ALSO would having their ear hair plucked be more of a requirement like some poodles?

I LOVE F1b's but could not afford the grooming requirements .
Peanut's coat is nonshedding, thick fleece wavy to semi curls and if too long will matt during certain times of year regardless of daily brushing.

SO she requires brushing and grooming (clipped down) every 3 to tops 4mos. BUT her coat is able to grow out longer than a F1B BEFORE having to have her clipped down to 1/2 to 1in. it can grow to 2.5 in or tad longer
but 3 or more inches and OFF TO GROOMER or it matts.

I am just trying to also present what some people aren't aware of when getting CURLY coated doodles: higher maintainence [costs] unless they learn to do grooming themselves. I wanted a poodle but couldn't do maintence requirements thus we have Peanut a GD companion to Max.

her coat didnt' require as much maintainence till AFTER she turned almost 1.5years old. I LOVE HER COAT and temperment but it does require grooming at home and by a professional too.

LONG STORY SHORT: besides coat what is considered before doing this breeding scheme and does anyone have documentation from owners of this with doodles past a year or 1.5yrs old?
I am just curious and trying to learn

[Doodlesville]

oh ,,sorry
border line wavy,,thats all i keep for breeding back
coat like bockers

[Doodlesville]

Temprament
No worries there,, all my breeding dogs are wonderful,,temprament is one of the main things i look at in choosing on my dogs
and yes i agree, should be one of the top priorities

Yes multi gens do have differences in coat
in fact it was reported a few years back, by one of the main breeders in aust, that they culled pups with lab like coats ,,unbelievable,,i was and am appalled
i do not breed back to poodle with the goldendoodles that will produce to much of a poodle like coat, and most folks really dont want that
I think if they want a multi gen ldoodle or f1b goldendoodle '
just go get ya a poodle and dont groom like a poodle same thing IMO,,LOL

[Lucky Me]

If I remember right, Bocker has a wider head & chest...abit more of a lab influence, as compared to an F1B that is built more like a poodle?
A breeding of an F1B like that to a poodle would seem okay if there was something that you needed to correct.
Tuesday looks lab to alot of people (she's F1) She has a thick, wavey hair coat with the cape on back. I was really shocked at the amount of thick, curly coats I got out of her, bred back to a poodle.
Then again, I have heard on this forum that I could breed to a different poodle and get completely different coats.
Trying to predict coats can drive you crazy, that's fantastic Nancy that you have your lines down that you can predict coat types!

[Doodlesville]

NO one can predict coat types in a doodle i dont care what the generation is, there is not rhyme or reason to any of it i dont care what some breeders tell folks ,,just cant be done,,

I look at coats and do the best i can,,i think its my dogs is why i get the type of coats and look i get ,, I put alot into choosing my breeding stock,
I like the stockier built dogs, squarer more substance in both my labs and my poodle, goldens as well,,also if you look at my aussie(chico) he is small and has that good squarer look as well,,its what i like and what i breed for

[Jac]

This is an excellent discussion.

I want to state, as most of you already have, that the temperament of a dog is the ONLY reason I would consider breeding it...THEN I look at the coat and appearance issues, which also must give some indication of quality.

You don't want to breed just any dog, ever.

So, if you get an F1B with a Labby coat, I would first look for an F1B with a very curly coat (and all of the good temperament/health qualities) and if the right one is not available I would certainly consider a Poodle.

I totally agree with Nancy that you have to know your dogs and know what you will produce. This is why I am staying with my own dogs for breeding, until I need to bring in new blood lines...then I select the puppy that offers the most of what I want...and I RAISE THE PUPPY. This is how I KNOW what I am producing...STILL...in every line, a throwback to a bad temperament or a bad coat or some other bad genetic flaw is lurking...so it is always a gamble.

This is why I raise them. If I find a serious flaw, the dog is spayed/neutered and stays with me as a pet. If I get too many, I may need to rehome the dog or reevaluate my decision to breed...but I have been very lucky and the dogs I select have been excellent.

Therefore, if you breed two dogs successfully, then you want to continue that mating. If you find a flaw that seems to carry through the litter, then you don't repeat the mating. No matter what the coats are like!

Ideally, a breeder will start with really good dogs (temperamentally sound, healthy, intelligent, beautiful, good teeth, etc.) and then raise that dog to determine if there are any aggression issues or overly submissive issues, or common health issues, etc.

After the pups are placed, it is critical to stay in touch with as many of the families as will agree, and find out the good ...AND THE BAD about the pups. That is the only way to learn if you are producing good dogs.

Now, to address the question of too much Poodle...I think that even though there are certain scientific equasions that say you will get X number of puppies with certain traits, given the genetic makeup of the dog...it is not certain. Therefore, in predicting that an F1B is already too much Poodle, and should not be breed back to a Poodle, I think is flawed. It is possible...possible, mind you, that the majority of the genetic makeup of an F1B is Lab (or Golden)...and breeding back to a Poodle you will likely get true F1B traits, even though it is not a true F1B. Am I making sense?

I can only speculate, of course, because I don't have experience in extended Poodle infusion...but I can say that through the variety of litters we have produced, we get three, sometimes four, DISTINCT and predictable "looks".

1) Beautiful, thick, shiny, wavy fleece (the ideal for Doodle breeders)
2) Wool (can be shiny, soft OR coarse...can be shedding or non. Silky, non-shedding is also an ideal for breeders.)
3) Scruffy with a thick, wavy coat, usually coarse, sometimes very downy, but always a look of a "Disney" dog
4) Lab (or Golden) look with sligtly more facial and/or body hair...usually has "feathers" on legs, and is not considered "fluffy"

I would say that numbers 3 and 4, given all other qualities, would be okay to breed back to a Poodle...under the RIGHT conditions.

Now, it is my belief...although I can not prove it...that these pups come out in all breedings. I do believe (and HATE to say this) that sometimes these pups are "culled" as Nancy says...I say it right out..sometimes they are killed.

Okay, there it is. I am NOT saying that the current breeders of multigen dogs are doing this...only that I believe that this practice HAD to have happened in the past in order to breed true...just like it had to happen in all pure breeds throughout history.