F1B BACK TO A POODLE

[Mhyles30]

Sorry, I meant F1B bred back to a poodle, having a senior moment here

[Jac]

That will still be an F1B. The designation only goes up one generation from the LOWEST generation of the parent...and whenever a parent breed is addes, we use a B.
However, this breeding is not recommended. Better to breed to a curly F1B if you are planning to breed a flat coated F1B.

[Mhyles30]

Originally Posted by Jac

That will still be an F1B. The designation only goes up one generation from the LOWEST generation of the parent...and whenever a parent breed is addes, we use a B.
However, this breeding is not recommended. Better to breed to a curly F1B if you are planning to breed a flat coated F1B.

Jac, did you mean better to breed an F1B to a curly F1b to get flat coated F1B? Or maybe you meant curly F1B X flat coated F1B is recommended instead of using a poodle? I have a flat coated F1 Male and was thinking of maybe choosing a really curly coated F1B from my next litter to mate with him someday, considering of course the temperament is what I am looking for.

Thanks.
Mhyles

[KingstonTodd]

Originally Posted by Jac

That will still be an F1B. The designation only goes up one generation from the LOWEST generation of the parent...and whenever a parent breed is addes, we use a B.
However, this breeding is not recommended. Better to breed to a curly F1B if you are planning to breed a flat coated F1B.

Not disagreeing with Jac about her recomendation about choosing an F1b stud, but how I interpret the generation thing: an F1b bred to a poodle would be an F2b. Still "b" for backcross but the generation still advances. You are allowed to use poodle for coat correction 2x every 6 generations and still go up a generation. This wording was more clear on the ALAA website last year, their new grading scheme is not very clear at all. For example, breeding a multigen (or ALD) back to poodle doesn't undo the muli and make it an F1b. Not that it really matters it is only a matter of symantics....if I am not correct someone please correct me. I am thinking about purchasing the offspring on a ALD x poodle and was told it would be ALD, and not F1b. There is a difference in price in ALD vs F1b for sure.

[Jac]

I meant that instead of breeding a flat coated F1B to a Poodle (making too much Poodle so soon) it is better to breed to a curly coated F1 or higher generation...I said F1B because in my experience, F1s are generally not too cruly...
I don't know anything at all about ALD grading...never had to learn that.
I had just checked the ALAA site to get the grading and was quoting my understanding of that. Honestly, it changes so much that I never really know...It used to be F1 type designations, then it changed to ALF generations and it is all mixed up, in my opinion. For instance, my reading of this is that an F1B bred to an F1 is called "multigen"...which I think is rediculous.
Then I just read one person's web where thier F1B female gave birth to a litter of Aus. MGs! Now, sure, if the dad was an Aus. MG, I guess that they keep that designation...but it just doesn't make sense, not according to the grading scheme. To me, that litter should be F3 at the most.

[cocoandjane]

It is all confusing to me right now.
Is there a lot of american labradoodles now being bred to australian multi-gens?
Is that the point of confusion>>? Should the two be kept separate???
What are the reasons for whatever your stance is on this??
I am really curious. Don't mean to hijack this thread, if I am.....but.....
It is sometimes confusing to have to explain all the generations and
what they are called....and why. And what sort "labradoodle" is what??

[cocoandjane]

Bet you can't tell how exhausted I am in the post above!!!

[KingstonTodd]

I think poeple are now calling anything F3 or higher multigen (rightfully or not), and they include the puppies from F1bxF1b to be F3 (since F1b is a LO2 (labradoodle origin 2nd generation)), but I think they have moved on from that terminology already. To be an australian labradoodle you have to have at least 3 breeds in the gentic history. I think this stems from the requirement of the AKC that a new breed can not simply be the mix or two breeds but a blend of 3 or more. So, lab and poodle is labradoodle, and if you breed to a cockapoo, presto you get an australian labradoodle. I think people are breeding american labradoodles (lab and poodle only) to australian to widen the genetic pool in the australian, which is a good thing for the breed.

[Jac]

Jane, it is very confusing...and my personal opinion is that only the Australian lines should be called Australian Multigens and that they should stay within those lines. The American Labradoodles should be only Lab and Poodle crosses...but I am in the minority of breeders who feel this way.
I am finding that American Line breeders are infusing other breeds into the Lab/Poodle cross, for a variety of reasons.
The reasoning behind infusing early generation American Lines into Australian Multigen Lines is, from what I have heard, to add new blood lines. It is difficult to find unrelated breeding stock in the Aus. MG lines. Also, I think that breeders are looking beyond the "name" and just trying to improve their lines.

[KingstonTodd]

By only allowing exisiting Australian lines to be called australian they are limiting the genetic pool and will be subjected to the problems of a limited gene pool just like recognized breeds. Since "the books are open" so to say, I think they should create as many new australian lines as possible to increse the gene pool, and that can happen anywhere as long as they following the recomended guidlines. I think I read the eastimate that it takes 14 dogs to create a "purebred" australian labradoodle, so that would take a very ong time for one kennel to start from scratch and end up with a brand new line to introduce. Definately a commitment of love and time. I also think that american and australian line should stay seperate, since they really are different breeds (2 vs 3 or more founding breeds) amd they are both great!!

Aside, do you think labradoodles suffer in their attempt to become a recognized breed, or be seen as legitimate because of their name? Sometimes I with they were called Australian water dog, or Australian retriever or something a little more standard.

[Jac]

I think that is the reasoning behind the name North American Retriever for Labradoodle/Goldendoodle cross...the American breeders see this as a way to have a standardized breed without confusing them with Austrailian Labradoodles. I think.

[KingstonTodd]

Originally Posted by Jac

I think that is the reasoning behind the name North American Retriever for Labradoodle/Goldendoodle cross...the American breeders see this as a way to have a standardized breed without confusing them with Austrailian Labradoodles. I think.

Is their a parent organization for the NAR? Maybe we need to create another website and start recruiting members