Can you all explain to me how a mini is made?

cissy k · 10-04-2008, 11:17 PM

Well, I am jumping the gun a bit here, but I believe my MIL is going to want another dog in the future. It will take time as she is still grieving over Chauncey, but she is a dog lover and I don't think she will wait too long before wanting another.

She adores Semi and the non shed issue is a real positive in her eyes. But I know she will want a smaller dog that she can carry if necessary. And one that will travel well. I also know she would prefer to rescue if she can. I am thinking no more than twenty pounds. And, since she will want an older dog, she won't have any surprises.

So, my question is about how breeders get the smaller sized LD's. Do they use a toy poodle or a small poodle? Or do they just keep back the smallest LD from a litter and then breed that? The reason I ask is that I have always heard that toy and mini poodles can be snippy.

When the time comes, we will contact IDOG and I will post here and we will see if we can find the right Doodle for her. I am thinking early 2009 is when she will start looking. That gets Semi a bit down the road, gets us through the Holidays and she will be moving out of her grieving stage.

Thanks for the info!!

Jac · 10-05-2008, 01:14 AM

Hi Cissy,
I think it is lovely that you are considering a Doodle for your MIL.
I am not sure how easy it will be to rescue a mini Doodle. Standards sized Doodles are even hard to come by because they are in demand...so finding a mini is going to be tough.
Be careful in selecting a mini, be sure that the breeder did take time to help create a smaller version. Often breeders will breed miniture, toy or even tea cup Poodle with STANDARD sized Labs to get the miniutre dogs and what happens is that the bones, organs, teeth and such may not align properly or be the right sizes...for instance, I have seen Doodles with short legs and long backs. This is not healthy and I think that it is irresponsible of breeders to rush the process.
Make sure that the breeder has bred down to mini slowly, usually starting with small standard X moyen or large mini Poodle...but then it gets more complicated still because you don't want to keep breeding to Poodles, so they can't take a F1B from the mating I mentioned and breed to a smaller Poodle again...
I have been happy with our litter of smaller pups and we bred our 42 lb small standard LD (f1) to a moyen Poodle and the pups are maturing to be around 20-45 lbs. I could take one of these pups and breed to a miniture Labradoodle and keep the lines....but there still could be a throwback to a larger pup...
This is why minitures are so hard to come by. It isn't natural to breed a full sized Lab and get a miniture, without a lot of downsizing litters first.
So, don't be fooled by someone who tries to short cut the process by breeding a toy or tea cup Poodle to a standard...it is just not a good idea, the health of the pup will likely suffer somehow.

cissy k · 10-05-2008, 10:50 AM

Great answer, Jaq! This was my concern as she wants to rescue a dog. And because of her age, I know she will not want a puppy.

Maybe, when the time is right, we will simply post around that we would be willing to take a rehome. And, of course, we will contact the fine people at IDOG and let them know what we are looking for. No hurry, so I believe that when the right dog comes along, it will all fall into place.

But that is exactly what my fear was about how unscrupulous breeders produce smaller LD's. THANKS!! You are always a great help.

Napathedoodle · 10-05-2008, 11:57 AM

I know this is jumping the gun, but I would research mini breeders and "get your name in" for the rehome. Because, like Jac said, you really want to make sure the size has been done correctly...

M&Tdoodles · 10-05-2008, 09:37 PM

Well said Jac!

Maureen · 10-06-2008, 07:45 PM

agreed, all around here, too....Cissy you are so sweet to be looking ahead. Would you consider housebreaking/training a puppy for your MIL? A friend for Semi? I know someone who did that for her 90yr old mother! And of course, the dog could outlive her mom so she feels like she has already bonded with the puppy, and the puppy has absolutely added verve and life to her sweet little mom, too! A win/win situation so I thought I'd mention it. The rarity of well-bred mini's is real.

We had our first litter of miniatures this last spring, and I was very surprised that 2 of the 9 puppies might only top out at 20lbs! Our boy Sunny is already at or over 20lbs and his brother is at or over 25lbs, at 8mos. old. So there's a variety in the litter. But there were really petite puppies and bigger-boned puppies in this f1b litter. Our (Mini) Poodle is nicely proportioned but fairly petite in his structure. Our boy Sunny is very square, but a smaller and non-shedding version of his mom. Believe me, when I get him bathed and our camera fixed I'll be posting pictures!

Jac's exactly right about sizing, in my opinion. Others disagree with us, but she and I are in agreement about carefully downsizing the weight and height of Doodles.

Hey, Jac, you and I ought to put my boy Sunny with one of your moyen f1b girls sometime for true miniature f3's!

I hope this helps. Your mom raised a good daughter and your MIL is lucky to have you!!

cissy k · 10-06-2008, 08:06 PM

Thanks! As for a puppy, I think her concern would be that

1. She would want it in her room at night and would have to come wake me up (and Semi) to take the dog out at night. Ugh!

2. That if I did the training and walking (because she is physically not able to exercise like a puppy needs) then the pup would bond to me as Semi has done.

3. She is pretty much a rescue person. She has always had rescues so I think that just sits with her better. With so many dogs in need, she will want to give one a home

4. I am not sure she would want to risk getting ill or dying before her dog. I know that may sound crazy to some, but for her that would be a real concern. Not that we would not love and care for her dog as it will be living in our home (and therefore part of our family), but I think that would worry her. She is only 65 but I know that would really sit heavily on her heart. And a puppy that has the potential to live 13+ years may not be the best fit.

So, I think after Thanksgiving, we will have a family sit down and talk about what she wants to do. And if she wants another, you all will be the first to know! And, even if it takes months, I know that with everyone's help, the right dog will come along.

Thanks so much, everyone! You all are the best!

Jac · 10-06-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maureen

Hey, Jac, you and I ought to put my boy Sunny with one of your moyen f1b girls sometime for true miniature f3's!

Yeah...once I stop producing black puppies!

cissy k · 10-06-2008, 08:17 PM

The pup in your Avatar is simply DIVINE!!!

blueteal · 10-06-2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cissy k

The pup in your Avatar is simply DIVINE!!!

Ditto Jac that pupple is adorable!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jac · 10-06-2008, 08:44 PM

Thank you! He is one of Bayley's pupples...he is a doll baby! (And sooooo cuddly!)

10-04-2008, 11:17 PM	#1 (permalink)
cissy k Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: NC Posts: 1,433	Can you all explain to me how a mini is made? Well, I am jumping the gun a bit here, but I believe my MIL is going to want another dog in the future. It will take time as she is still grieving over Chauncey, but she is a dog lover and I don't think she will wait too long before wanting another. She adores Semi and the non shed issue is a real positive in her eyes. But I know she will want a smaller dog that she can carry if necessary. And one that will travel well. I also know she would prefer to rescue if she can. I am thinking no more than twenty pounds. And, since she will want an older dog, she won't have any surprises. So, my question is about how breeders get the smaller sized LD's. Do they use a toy poodle or a small poodle? Or do they just keep back the smallest LD from a litter and then breed that? The reason I ask is that I have always heard that toy and mini poodles can be snippy. When the time comes, we will contact IDOG and I will post here and we will see if we can find the right Doodle for her. I am thinking early 2009 is when she will start looking. That gets Semi a bit down the road, gets us through the Holidays and she will be moving out of her grieving stage. Thanks for the info!! __________________ Cissy and Semi

10-05-2008, 10:50 AM	#3 (permalink)
cissy k Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: NC Posts: 1,433	Great answer, Jaq! This was my concern as she wants to rescue a dog. And because of her age, I know she will not want a puppy. Maybe, when the time is right, we will simply post around that we would be willing to take a rehome. And, of course, we will contact the fine people at IDOG and let them know what we are looking for. No hurry, so I believe that when the right dog comes along, it will all fall into place. But that is exactly what my fear was about how unscrupulous breeders produce smaller LD's. THANKS!! You are always a great help. __________________ Cissy and Semi

10-05-2008, 11:57 AM	#4 (permalink)
Napathedoodle Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: California Posts: 331	I know this is jumping the gun, but I would research mini breeders and "get your name in" for the rehome. Because, like Jac said, you really want to make sure the size has been done correctly... __________________ Kristen and Napa-doodle, the chocolate doodle!

10-05-2008, 09:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
M&Tdoodles Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 548	Well said Jac! __________________ Martha & Tom

10-06-2008, 07:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
Maureen Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,810	agreed, all around here, too....Cissy you are so sweet to be looking ahead. Would you consider housebreaking/training a puppy for your MIL? A friend for Semi? I know someone who did that for her 90yr old mother! And of course, the dog could outlive her mom so she feels like she has already bonded with the puppy, and the puppy has absolutely added verve and life to her sweet little mom, too! A win/win situation so I thought I'd mention it. The rarity of well-bred mini's is real. We had our first litter of miniatures this last spring, and I was very surprised that 2 of the 9 puppies might only top out at 20lbs! Our boy Sunny is already at or over 20lbs and his brother is at or over 25lbs, at 8mos. old. So there's a variety in the litter. But there were really petite puppies and bigger-boned puppies in this f1b litter. Our (Mini) Poodle is nicely proportioned but fairly petite in his structure. Our boy Sunny is very square, but a smaller and non-shedding version of his mom. Believe me, when I get him bathed and our camera fixed I'll be posting pictures! Jac's exactly right about sizing, in my opinion. Others disagree with us, but she and I are in agreement about carefully downsizing the weight and height of Doodles. Hey, Jac, you and I ought to put my boy Sunny with one of your moyen f1b girls sometime for true miniature f3's! I hope this helps. Your mom raised a good daughter and your MIL is lucky to have you!! __________________ ~Maureen LabradoodleRanch@aol.com www.LabradoodleRanch.com

10-05-2008, 01:14 AM	#2 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Hi Cissy, I think it is lovely that you are considering a Doodle for your MIL. I am not sure how easy it will be to rescue a mini Doodle. Standards sized Doodles are even hard to come by because they are in demand...so finding a mini is going to be tough. Be careful in selecting a mini, be sure that the breeder did take time to help create a smaller version. Often breeders will breed miniture, toy or even tea cup Poodle with STANDARD sized Labs to get the miniutre dogs and what happens is that the bones, organs, teeth and such may not align properly or be the right sizes...for instance, I have seen Doodles with short legs and long backs. This is not healthy and I think that it is irresponsible of breeders to rush the process. Make sure that the breeder has bred down to mini slowly, usually starting with small standard X moyen or large mini Poodle...but then it gets more complicated still because you don't want to keep breeding to Poodles, so they can't take a F1B from the mating I mentioned and breed to a smaller Poodle again... I have been happy with our litter of smaller pups and we bred our 42 lb small standard LD (f1) to a moyen Poodle and the pups are maturing to be around 20-45 lbs. I could take one of these pups and breed to a miniture Labradoodle and keep the lines....but there still could be a throwback to a larger pup... This is why minitures are so hard to come by. It isn't natural to breed a full sized Lab and get a miniture, without a lot of downsizing litters first. So, don't be fooled by someone who tries to short cut the process by breeding a toy or tea cup Poodle to a standard...it is just not a good idea, the health of the pup will likely suffer somehow.

10-06-2008, 08:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
cissy k Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: NC Posts: 1,433	Thanks! As for a puppy, I think her concern would be that 1. She would want it in her room at night and would have to come wake me up (and Semi) to take the dog out at night. Ugh! 2. That if I did the training and walking (because she is physically not able to exercise like a puppy needs) then the pup would bond to me as Semi has done. 3. She is pretty much a rescue person. She has always had rescues so I think that just sits with her better. With so many dogs in need, she will want to give one a home 4. I am not sure she would want to risk getting ill or dying before her dog. I know that may sound crazy to some, but for her that would be a real concern. Not that we would not love and care for her dog as it will be living in our home (and therefore part of our family), but I think that would worry her. She is only 65 but I know that would really sit heavily on her heart. And a puppy that has the potential to live 13+ years may not be the best fit. So, I think after Thanksgiving, we will have a family sit down and talk about what she wants to do. And if she wants another, you all will be the first to know! And, even if it takes months, I know that with everyone's help, the right dog will come along. Thanks so much, everyone! You all are the best! __________________ Cissy and Semi

10-06-2008, 08:17 PM	#9 (permalink)
cissy k Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: NC Posts: 1,433	The pup in your Avatar is simply DIVINE!!! __________________ Cissy and Semi

10-06-2008, 08:44 PM	#11 (permalink)
Jac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: northern California Posts: 9,243	Thank you! He is one of Bayley's pupples...he is a doll baby! (And sooooo cuddly!)

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