Questions about crossing a Full Size to a Mini

[daissyj]

Hi! I need your input...I was just told that crossing a standard size dog (ex: Golden Retriever or Lab) to a small poodle causes their temperments to be unpredictable and would not make good pets for kids. Is this true?? I currently have standard size Labradoodles but would like to breed a bit smaller size, however, it's more important that I raise great family pets, as I have small chidren/infants myself. I don't not want to even mess around with a dog that is unpredictable, nor do I want to sell any to other families! Please let me know your thoughts!! THX!

[movistar]

I also understand that bone issues and other developmental issues do arise.

There is a standard for minitarizing doodles and if I remember correctly the size difference cannot exceed 4".

Hope this helps.

[Jac]

Hi Julie,
I think that Micky is right...temperament aside (because I believe that temperament is more of an individual dog trait...possibly something to consider from the pedigree too) I think that the biggest concern is physical.
I know that many are breeding smaller dogs, but in my opinion, to do so responsibly would be to start with a smaller standard and breed to a larger miniture. Does that make sense?
Then I would keep that breeding up for a while until I was certain of the outcome as they grow up.
I think that the biggest mistake is when people start right out with standard/mini (or toy) breeding without knowing or observing the litters of a few "first trys".
When the bones and joints don't match up, some potentially serious physical problems could occur.
Also...until you produce several litters, you won't know the final outcome, size-wise or temperament...so whatever you decide to do, wait for at least a year to judge the offspring (for health and temperament) before making other changes...this will also help you to buidl your reputation, because people will see that your concern is with the final outcome, the health and well being of the puppies and not just creating a profitable smaller breed without knowing the consequences.

[gracielou]

I agree with the 4" rule I just think breeding a large size to a very small just wouldn't be good for the joints. Just my thought.

[Doodlesville]

I agree also, temprament is mostly how they are raised
the big concern is growth issues
long back short legs cause major problems
not somthing i have ever done or would consider,
if it doesnt happen natural its not meant to be

[Maureen]

I would not disagree with anything the other breeders are saying....except that I think we, as breeders, need to be honest - My sister says "this is what I think, not what I know" We don't really KNOW a lot - - yet - - about breeding miniature poodles to Labs or Labradoodles (for f1b) because there just aren't a lot of dogs out there, and the truth is that even our collective experience is limited.

One thing I read from another breeder (not posted here) was that the dna, and temperment of a small dog don't KNOW they are in a small dog. .i.e., there are calm and hyper, bossy and sweet small dogs, just like here are, in the big dog range.

I'm waiting to find out about both the gradual kind of downsizing, as I plan to breed my 16-18" f1b to a 21" f1 in 6 mos, if her testing comes thru. This isn't probably a typical breeding combination, but I like the idea of a gradual downsizing; my Tiger Lily is smaller than we expected and her "boyfriend" is bigger than we expected! But they are similar enough that I'm really excited about the few puppies she could have. PLUS they both are/carry CHOCOLATE & PHANTOM markings!

I also plan to breed my 20" f1 to a 12" poodle, at least once to see the puppies and consider them. The temperments of both - and they've been raised by 2 different families - is sweet as sugar, so the confirmation and size are what I'm really going to be observing.

[MaxandMe]

I am not a breeder but just wondering if there really is a difference in personality from a Std poodle versus smaller ones. Also what are the health differences as well.
And i also wonder if it hard to know this UNLESS someone breeds these types of dogs and documents via those that own them afterwards and/or keeps one themself to see the development.

just an outloud thought folks.

[Maureen]

Annmarie, those are EXACTLY the kinds of questions most of us Doodle breeders wonder too!

the fact of the matter is that VERY FEW doodle breeder have done much, if any research into Poodles, beyond just owning a Standard Poodle or two. So now that we're all busy with our Doodles and puppies, who researches a whole new size/breed like Miniatures? (not literally a new breed, but well, you know. )

I don't want to sound critical, or even cynical of breeders, including myself, but the fact that we don't know a LOT of info is one thing that I do know! lol.

[MaxandMe]

hear hear Maureen!! Too bad more breeders don't have information listed or even forum members here with mini-doodles.
For me i would think Temperament and Testing would be the utmost importance.

I do know my breeder has a small golden retriever but her poodle is a very tall std. it is curious for her now to see the goldendoodles grow. Many of us are now telling her so she can have firsthand info on the size, temperaments,coat, health and so on. She hasn't breed labradoodles since last year and doing solely goldendoodles for now.

Point: my breeder calls many of the people who have her labradoodles and goldendoodles to see how everything is going and so on. She calls quite a bit. With me, she can not only SEE her puppies but hear about it too.

[Doodlesville]

i can tell you there is a big difference between mini/toy and standard poodles

lets think about this for just a second,, There was alot of inbreeding and linebreeding to obtain the smaller size of the poodle, this as we all know causes serious problems..mentally and physically in both animals and people,,

I stand by my statement on my sizes page after years of being in the dog world, grooming,vet tech,showing,training and living with them
I have serious concerns over breeders using AI to obtain a smaller size. Trying to do it to fast is jeopradizing the mental and physical health of our breed.for what ?? CASH?

[MaxandMe]

okay, i will say from experience of friends in the past owning a mini poodle versus standards. I believe there is a difference in temperament at times, antics, energy or how they show their exhuberance, their independence ,health issues and so on.

for me i prefer the original mix to obtaining a doodle. and YES the larger size is the end result. I think Mini's are cute and have their purpose for those wishing to have a smaller dog. But for me, having a doodle was for allergetic reasons along with temperament. so I take size in stride. Max just had a growth spurt and is now 24in tall and gained weight. He's surpassed his mom's size for sure and well if he keeps growing he's end almost as tall as his dad. Peanut a goldendoodle hmmmm only time will tell.

I jus think in some ways Doodle info is just coming in and the mini-doodle world has yet to have enough breeding to fully say what this breed is like,,and it's being done for various reasons: size, shedding qualities, and maybe unscrupulous breeders do it for cash?

I just get nervous about what potential health problems can arise from a smaller poodle

[Doodlesville]

AnnMarie, I have some VERY small Standards 40lbs in most cases, and we breed down for size,
i have a 28lb Doodle i kept from a litter, in the same litter there was a 65lb doodle(do you remember bubba?) well there is no way any breeder can predict size ,these are afterall hybrids a larger gene can creep in there at anytime, Im hoping to breed my little girl to rusty my mini poodle if it happens great ,,i wont ai them to obtain this size, if it doesnt happen naturally god didnt mean for it to happen ,For a Reason!!!

[daissyj]

Thank you all for your responses. I was having problems logging into the forum (for some reason my account was de-activated), but I'm at least able to respond now! You have all been great and helpful, as usual. I think, for me personally, the "down-sizing" should be gradual and my focus will remain on breeding healthy family pets!!

[M&Tdoodles]

[quote="Doodlesville"]AnnMarie, I have some VERY small Standards 40lbs in most cases, and we breed down for size,............

My questions is this " When is a so called Miniature Poodle considered to be a Miniature" is it when they are the progeny of both smaller parents and what size is a miniature poodle? I read the stats somewhere but cant locate them now.

We use a Standard Poodle because of temperament athletic ability & most of all intelligence. Our vet recently remarked at Kozmo saying that the standard breed are thinkers before they do anything, as opposed to many dogs that do before thinking. The standards are very "Cerebral thinkers" as far as canines go. She was the one that told us to put Kozmo out to stud for other poodles.

Smaller dogs are cute , take up less room etc... but Ive never seen a smaller mini poodle that was as mellow & laid back as Kozmo. So many seem anxious & nervous, hyper & not totally kid safe. I see so many that are rescued & the recuees will not allow them to be placed in homes with small children, allowing most to be placed in an adult only home. But I guess it doesn't mean that they are all like this....

[Doodlesville]

AKC sizes>>>> The Standard Poodle is over 15 inches at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard Poodle.
Ours are around 18-19" at the shoulder refrered to as MOYEN

The Miniature Poodle is 15 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders, with a minimum height in excess of 10 inches. Any Poodle which is over 15 inches or is 10 inches or less at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Miniature Poodle.

The Toy Poodle is 10 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is more than 10 inches at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Toy Poodle.

So it seems a Miniature is anything under 15" at the shoulder
if it is too small to breed naturally then IMHO breeders shouldnt breed them