BUYERS/BREEDERS BEWARE!! (a long story)

[Maureen]

hi, I thought I should tell this story for the reminder and possibly benefit of others.

Have you ever heard of someone selling a breeding dog inexpensively? Wonder why? or should you jump on the deal?

I heard of a female who was available from a smalltime breeder in another state. The woman said that when the litter was almost all sold her husband had health issues, so she wasn't able to really market the last 2 puppies. These are f2's - from an f1 x f1 breeding. The breeder offers a health guarantee on her site.

This was not a proven doodle but more of a forgotten doodle....but she has a pretty, soft fleece coat and looks pretty nice. Kinda shy, and I would expect this, given her lack of socialization. But sweet.

The price on her is really good. They want to find her a home, and they're ok that I am a breeder.
"They have been fully vet checked for genetic defects," is on her site. This is the sweet girl on the left in the first pic, and then after a shave-down from the winter's mud and matting:



Isn't she pretty?
Well, her price was a steal - possibly. And the owner didn't want to have her hips checked before I purchased her so I offered to purchase the OFA report if the doodle could go to the vet's. Not a big expense where she lives, and worth it to me, in the absence of OFA reports on the parents..

Well the bottom line is that the OFA report says she has "Severely Dysplastic Hips".
The owner/breeder was shocked!!

"we breed for quality" is on her site. multiple places.

Here's what I believe: The breeder is not deliberately producing puppies with poor health or a poor genetic foundation. However she DID produce a litter with at least ONE puppy who has a severe health issue. And I do not, in any way want to impune this breeder, but it's all over her site that her dogs have been vet-checked for genetic health issues. I just want to say that a good vet and good intentions do NOT constitute due diligence in verifying the quality of our breeding stock!

And...what if a breeder offers a health guarantee? But has never really had any expert look at x-rays/films?
What good does a guarantee do? Doesn't it just mean that someone now loves a doodle with a ticking time bomb of a problem in their own body?

Anyway, like I said this breeder meant well, and did not ever deceive me. But she promises quality and assurances on genetic defects. I am left wondering what the basis of her assurance? And what is the real condition is of the hips of the parents of this sweet girl? And I am hoping and praying that any/all puppies from these f1 doodle parents are healthy and happy!
(I do know that OFA-certified dogs can and do produce puppies with poor hips, due to genetic components. But OFA is not mentioned on this breeders' site.) I'm talking about due diligence, not honesty.

I know that most of you all know this kind of stuff, or have heard of similar stories. The good news for me is that I spent a little money but saved a WHOLE BUNCH of heartbreak and loss. But if you EVER have a breeder hesitate to offer to prove testing of the parents' good hips, or the stud's good hips in the case of stud service, well, beware!!

[MaxandMe]

oh Maureen sorry to hear this happened to you and this doodle!!
and if the breeder knows about this puppy she should reconsider ever breeding this pair again

and was there pre-knowledge thus the really inexpensive price on this puppy?
i would think the breeder would reimburse you for at least half the cost of the test or soem type of compensation
along with REALIZING severe (not mild) HD has reared it's head in a litter now
and another question, how old is the breeding pair as well?

if one puppy has it, there is a small chance others might but wont' show symptoms
thus the QUALITY isn't present now and the breeding pair needs to be reconfigured!

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by MaxandMe

if one puppy has it, there is a small chance others might but wont' show symptoms
thus the QUALITY isn't present now and the breeding pair needs to be reconfigured!

I know of a litter where 2 puppies had varying degrees of dysplasia in a litter, at 12-18mos. old. And if this girl has, as OFA says, severe dysplasia, it does bring to mind a concern about the others in her litter, doesn't it? And frankly every puppy each parent has ever had, comes to mind for me. But that's just me. I wish I would have asked her if she was going to spay/neuter both parents.

[MaxandMe]

Maureen........i am thinking how much do you and/or others you know in breeding deal with this breeder?
this breeder really has to make a decision that all puppies have spay/neuter

NOW did you also do PennHip? just curious and you can Pm or email answer to this as this is your private business
when it comes to further testing and also is quite expensive

BUT whether or not the breeder likes it .........severe HD while it may be the roll of the dice in genetics
it has to be looked at seriously.
i also was thinking too how old is the bitch used in breeding as well as the sire
as humans do so do dogs, health problems can occur some of which are hereditary then to litters

and a reputable breeder would be upset and concerned about breeding this pair again as their contract
may come into use with other puppies if diagnosed with HD
yes there is the one chance like the doodle you have but now does this chance of odds go higher with future litters
SEVERE HD cannot be ignored in fact one canadian breeder put a dog down that was under a year old with SEVERE HD
she had purchased for breeding

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by MaxandMe

Maureen........i am thinking how much do you and/or others you know in breeding deal with this breeder?
this breeder really has to make a decision that all puppies have spay/neuter

this breeder is very small and NOT active in the networks/channels you might think of when you think of doodle breeders. And she was really rocked by this report. I don't know what she's going to do from here on, but I might contact her in a little while to see what she's doing or going to do in the future. But I want to give her some space to grieve and think.

[Jac]

Maureen, thanks so much for this post!
I am so proud of you for insisting on the testing!
All breeders have been in a situation where a deal for a breeding dog is just soooooooo great...it is very hard to turn down! Recently, I heard of such a temptation...but I know, as you do, that HD is not something we want to deal with!
Sure, environmental conditions can "cause" HD, but I would never take a chance on breeding a dog diagnosed with even mild HD or anything unusual in the hips.
Breeders have to make choices sometimes...and we do have to consider ALL things that will be brought in with the breeding pair...sometimes we can try to counter one negative factor by bringing in an excellent mate and hope for off-spring with better health...but it is a gamble and we are still keeping that negative genetic trait in the lines to pop up somewhere...in time.
As hard as it is for potential breeders (or active breeders) to test and face the horrific consequences of a bad test, the risk is far greater if we gamble and decide not to test or if we take the risk, knowing that we have a genetic flaw...because then, we have KNOWINGLY produced puppies and those puppies may suffer...and, as loving breeders, we just don't want to take that risk, no matter the financial hit.
I really respect you for this action, and for telling the story...as I respect Jane, who had her heart broken TWICE with bad hips on her first two potential breeding dogs! What a painful blow!
But, I know that if either of you had decided to produce puppies anyway and if those pups would have been affected, you would have felt so responsible and ashamed.
I know the temptation...I had wanted to breed two of my girls...I was so excited to get puppies from them both...but I could not afford the testing and they went into heat and I was soooooo tempted to think, "The parents and siblings have tested well..." It would have been so easy for me to do...but I couldn't...I am ready, now, to test...and their next cycle will be an exciting time...I hope!
This is long, and I am sorry...but ...
When a breeder has tested the breeding pair and when something IS discovered, then it is the right and responsibility of the breeder to decide what to do next...but I think that the bottom line is to factor in...1) What if one (or 10) puppies is/are affected? 2) Is the condition life threatening? 3) Is the condition painful? 4) Is the condition repairable? 5) If it is repairable, at what financial cost? 6) Are there long-term consequences that the owner will have to deal with?
Then, a GOOD breeder will take those factors and make the best decision they can...but I will say, without reservation, that if there is even the SLIGHTEST chance that this INTENTIONALLY bred pair might pass along a painful condition, like HD, a good breeder will not do it.
As financially and emotionally hard as this decision is, the decision about what to do for an affected pup or an affected litter (or litters) is far more emotionally and financially draining.
One final thought...having a health warranty is, in my opinion, worthless if you are thinking that is all you owe to your customers...you want them to LOVE that puppy...for LIFE...and they will...but think, for a moment, about the emotional and financial hit they will take and you KNOW that by reimbursing the cost of the puppy you will NOT come close to making that situation all right. You also know that replacing a puppy is tough because who would want to take that risk again? Nope, a warranty without proper testing is just not good enough.
It is tough, but still much easier to do the right thing before you breed those dogs!

[Jac]

My comments above are not meant to be directed at good breeders who can and do sometimes have accidental matings...then, I believe, that the right thing to do is to find good homes for the puppies, offer a sound warranty and test the parents as soon as you can...notifying the families of the results if there is anything they should be watching for.