Back Yard Breeders/Puppy Mills

[anny51]

Thank you for posting that link Tink - I've just read it thro and I'm going to get myself a cup of tea while it sinks in....and Charlie is NOT getting off my lap! I'm also going to see what I can find out about puppy mills in NZ ....I do remember that years ago there was talk about similar operations on farms on the English/Welsh borders. Unfortunately, like so many wicked things it always seems to flourish, no matter how hard people try to eradicate it.

[cocoandjane]

We have a new Petland near here.....
Drove by it the other day....
Tons of protestors out front
and really circling the whole place
picket signs warning people
that the dogs sold there are from puppy mills.

I was glad to see them out there!!

Good article Tink....though it is hard to hear about
such horrible situations....I cannot imagine the person
able to treat animals that way....glad I don't know anyone like that.

[SamsonsMom]

WOW information overload - but very informative. I choked up about 10 times reading through the posts though.

My friend bought her cocker spaniel from a pet shop. Her cocker was marked down 50% because she was 6 months old and had a freckled coat (customers didn't seem to like the dog's freckles). Friend later found out that her dog was bought by the pet shop from a broker. What a sad way to start out in this world. First 6 months in a small cage - with no one really paying attention to you.

Lots of the pet shops in my area have closed down. However, just means the BYB's have to post an ad in the Sunday newspaper or wait on a street corner with a crate full of puppies. I will give praise to PetSmart & Petco in my town though - both hold adoption days every Sunday for local rescue groups and have a permnanent area for adoptable cats or small dogs.

Until now I was not that educated about the differences between PM's, BYB's and reputable breeders. Now I know there are HUGE differences. I think it is great that this forum has a great mix of owners and good breeders sharing information.

[Jac]

Thank you so much for your comment. The purpose of this article was to educate, not condemn...I am so glad that you learned something about this...it is such an important distinction to make.

[sheamusmom]

I understand that about 50% of puppy mill sales now are done via the internet. I recently ran into a puppy mill in OH that was masquerading on petfinder as a "small dog rescue" with litters of labradoodles, newfoundlands( since when are they small dogs), boxers, boston terriers, maltese, ALL 8weeks old!!!! I can't even verbalize how much I despise those PMs and BYBs. And as I take more traumatized dogs ("rejected or downsizing stock") from BYBs and PMs my blood just boils. Next weekend, if anyone is interested, there is a national puppymill awareness weekend in Lancaster, PA. I will be attending with some of my rescue friends. VIctoria Stillwell (who fosters herself for shelter dogs) will be one of the guest speakers, and a parade of owners and puppymill survivors. And don't forget, NEVER purchase a puppy unless you meet the breeder and parents of the dog, as well as see the breeding facility/ kennel.
The only ones who should be breeding are professionals who are motivated to better the health of the breed, and take genetics and parental health, as well as temperament into consideration. It's not just about having a "good looking dog"......and then, it's about making a lifetime commitment to that animal as part of your family.

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by sheamusmom

The only ones who should be breeding are professionals who are motivated to better the health of the breed, and take genetics and parental health, as well as temperament into consideration. It's not just about having a "good looking dog"......and then, it's about making a lifetime commitment to that animal as part of your family.

Sheamusmom, I and all the other participating breeders here completely agree wtih your statment above!
HOWEVER, I do place puppies via long distance and personal delivery and when I say the puppies are born in my bedroom they ARE born in my bedroom! I have LOCAL clients, who have become friends, who can verify that, if a long-distance person wants to know more about me from local eyes. And there are happy Doodle owners here on this forum who have our puppies, yet had not met me nor their puppies before our planes landed. I expect a breeder to work hard to give an interstate client as much info as possible to make sure the puppy's new family "knows" who they are going to meet at the airport.

I have also purchased breeding dogs from other breeders and it has gone very well, without knowing the breeders in person. BUT I have heard stories of people, as I said in the beginning of this thread, getting a puppy who didn't look ANYTHING like they expected when they picked up their pup in the cargo dept.

SO: there's no easy answer with internet sales, except TRUST AND VERIFY. Because not all "home raised" puppies are truly home raised....and not all "rescues" are true rescues.

[Jac]

Liz, thank you for your post. I know that this is something that is very dear to you...as it is to me, Maureen and the others on this forum...obviously, or we would not be here ready to discuss good breeding practices on a forum of strangers...so thanks to you all.

I do want to concur with Maureen's post. While the statement you made about puppy sales via the internet is true, and while I absolutely agree that they need to get to know their breeder BEFORE they send any money, I want to explain, as Maureen has, that there are many good breeders who sell through their web page, over the internet and many of us limit or greatly restrict visitations.

There are good reasons for all of this...and, like any other sales, you have to be sure that you are dealing with someone reputable before you buy. But that can be very difficult. One of the best ways I know of, to weed out a "bad" internet purchase (especially with puppies) is to have A LOT of contact with the seller. You can learn a great deal about a person by your conversations and interactions. Most reputable breeders will freely discuss your questions and concerns, they will have MANY references for you to contact (and you SHOULD contact them!) The good breeders will talk to you on the phone and they will want to protect the health of their puppies.

Not long ago, there was a story on the news about a young pregnant woman (a dog breeder selling her puppies) who was brutally murdered and her baby was cut from her womb...the person who did this was someone who had seen her picture on the internet, had talked with her about her family, her pregnancy, etc. When the "client" wanted to come out and visit the puppies...the breeder was killed. The "client" had been searching for the right person, pregnant woman, living at home...for easy access. Obvioulsy, this is not always going to happen...but most good breeders have their dogs in their private homes and in order to protect their families, they refuse to have people visit. I understand this concern. Also, there is the HUGE risk that people puppy shop from place to place, brining parvo or other diseases in to the families.

So, while I will let people visit my pups, I insist that they have a deposit down before they do...and I set the rules. If I don't trust them completely, I will meet them somewhere away from my home.

So, to be fair, it is important that you not paint this with such a wide brush that you eliminate some very good breeders or paint them as back yard breeders/puppy mills.

There are many things you can do to find out about the dogs and puppies...and if a breeder is too busy to take your calls or answer all of your questions...THEN look somewhere else. Usually that breeder doesn't care about the placement, they only care about the money.

Another good way to find out about your breeder is to ask other GOOD breeders...they all know each other through forums and associations. These breeders will tell you if there are any red flags about the breeder your are considering...but beware a breeder who will try to steal your purchase from another breeder too...

Finally (sorry this is so long) rescues are always non-profit corporations, so find out what the IRS number is for their 501 (c) (3)...if they don't have one, or if it is pending...wait until it is final. Then you can also check local humane societies or animal control departments to verify this business.

This is much like internet dating...you have to use common sense and logic and take many precautions...but I met my husband on the internet...so I know that good things happen online!

[4ever doodles]

I just want to point out also that whether or not you can visit the breeder should not be an indication of bad breeding practices. There are so many things to look for, but that should not be one of them. Over a year ago we received a call from a family wanting to come visit to see our current litter of pups. At the time our thoughts were we welcomed potential families as long as they made no other stops on the way there and if our puppies had received at least their first set of shots. The family supposedly lived near by and came over one evening. That week we had had several families come visit, all of whom picked their future puppy. This couple showed up, and asked questions about the pups. But they also asked several questions about our stud, whom was playing ball in the yard with my son. In fact, at the time we were flattered. Their questioning,oddly, was more about our stud than the actual puppies. But Woof was handsome and we were proud of him They visited for 30 minutes or so and said they would get back to us. That in itself was odd because most families that visit fall totally in love. But that was ok with us, we had basically decided not to approve them anyway. Just a weird vibe. 3 days later our stud was stolen.I will not go into it, or how we know it was that family. But we never found Woofman. Needless to say no matter how much I pride myself on being a professional, not back yard, breeder I am VERY particular on who we now let on our property.

[Doodlesville]

Cathy is absolutly correct!
in fact if a breeder allows visits that should throw up a red flag, other people can come to visit to no way of knowing what shelter or other kennels they have been to, and thus spread germs to all the pups that they come in contact with, something to think about

[KingstonTodd]

Originally Posted by Doodlesville

Cathy is absolutly correct!
in fact if a breeder allows visits that should throw up a red flag, other people can come to visit to no way of knowing what shelter or other kennels they have been to, and thus spread germs to all the pups that they come in contact with, something to think about

What do you do about friends and family coming over to visit? Do you let them come over when you have puppies in the house, or do you ask them to wait until they are gone, for the same risks of bringing in a bug?

[Jac]

Todd, we don't allow visitors, even friends or family, when we have puppies.
And, actually, we have become quite reclusive...people know that we have dogs and, frankly, most visitors would rather not be around that many barkers...so when people who know (and love) us want to visit, we either stay outside (on the lawn overlooking our beautiful property...sitting comfortably in the outdoor furniture ) or we meet them at a restaurant.
If someone does come over, we limit the area they go into (by keeping doors shut...they don't try to go into a closed door area) or we ask them to put on paper booties! LOL
Still, there is always a risk...even when Dave and I go out and come home...but we are very aware of WHERE we go...for instance, when we go to the vet, we are cautious about our shoes and clothing...and we NEVER go to places like shelters or dog parks without taking extreme caution...even when we don't have puppies at home...as you know, the germs will last.
I rarely let strangers visit...I just won't answer the door if I don't know someone is coming. I know that sounds odd...but I keep my dogs safer that way.
Oh, and we can always disinfect...we don't have carpeting so disinfecting is easier.

[Doodlesville]

Originally Posted by KingstonTodd

What do you do about friends and family coming over to visit? Do you let them come over when you have puppies in the house, or do you ask them to wait until they are gone, for the same risks of bringing in a bug?

Yes there are the same risks, NO ONE is allowed in the puppy areas at all
I have 3 houses, remember we live on 100acres, the reason i decided to get this place
if they do go in our house the pups are in and where i live, they have to dip shoes in clorox and water, or we just stay outside,
its not that big a deal,,, there are scrafices that must be made in order to keep the pups safe, bottom line

[Doodlesville]

Jac i just had to laugh "we have become quite reclusive"
that is so funny, and you hit the nail on the head,

People know what we do and why we do what we do ,the puppies health is first and foremost here!
We do everything we can, people want a healthy pup , those that do everything they can to ensure that speaks volumes for that breeder
IMHO
Nancy
Doodlesville
http://www.Doodlesville.net

[SamsonsMom]

UGH this is SO a BYB - thank goodness he's retired but just trying to sell his "equipment" to put the next BYB in business -


"Retiring Must Sell! .....These are custom made, Self-Standing Stack Portable Kennel Units, that we had designed to meet our own specifications; made by Hunte Kennel Systems. Each individual unit is 31" deep x 38" long x 24" tall. Complete with feeders, castors, automatic lixit waterers, drain pans & wash downs. Easily connects to a drain. Ideal for Inside Kennels, Whelping Units or Raising Puppies. Hunte cages are designed to be the most durable you can buy, and clean up is EXTRA EASY! PVS Plastic Frames, ABS Molded Plastic Tops, Dividers, Sides - 5/8" x 1-3/8" vinyl coated expanded metal flooring (6-cage units), a few units would need to be repaired/replaced; Tenderfoot Flooring (4-cage unit), water line needs replacing on bottom; easy PVC Line: Easy to Open Heavy Gage Coated Wire Doors, Durable Vinyl Trays. We have TWO-6 cage units(79"H x 119"L x 31"W) $600:Original Price $1900, and ONE-4 cage unit(79"H x 81"L x 31"W)$400:Original Price $1400, available. We accept PayPal, Credit Cards via PayPal, plus 3.5% PayPal Fee, Cashiers Check or Money Orders ONLY...or CASH at time of pick up. NO Persoanl Checks. Local Pick Up ONLY! Meetings are by a 'Scheduled' appointment time ONLY, and must be made 24-48 hours in advance, Mon-Fri. Please call at9am to 7pm Central Standard Time(please leave a message if I'm not available) or email me at . Please visit our click on the 'Availables & Equipment' page, and then 'Adult's link. ALL phone messages and emails are answered within 24 hours...if you do not hear from me, then I did not receive your message. Thanks for your interest! "



it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

[chitra]

Hi Jac,

I am looking/researching labradoodles (australian) for my 8 year old daughter...we will be first time owners.

There is so much information out there that it gets confusing but what I have gathered is that if good temperament, easy disposition and non-shedding is a priority for me, then Australian Lb might be the right one. I dont want to buy form PM or BYB but how do I find reputable breeders in my area (live in Virginia). Also, how do I verify what I am getting is a Australian LB or LB.....
Thanks

chitra