Generation Definition

[dhclem]

Hello all,

I am a newbie to this site… or if I may use a term, a “newdle”. I have searched for a while and can’t seem to find this exact answer/definition. I am in a little bit of a discrepancy with a breeder in what I understand to be an F1B. I am referring to an American Labradoodle breed. I have contacted the AKC, Mixed Breed Dog Club of America and the Continental Kennel Club and none seem to have rigid definitions of the breed-line. Are the definitions of F1, F1B, F2, etc stated somewhere on this site? My understanding is that an F1B is an F1 that is bred back (B) to a poodle. I think most would agree with that. But what is it when an F1B is bred with another F1B? Is that still considered an F1B?

Thanks in advance.

[KingstonTodd]

An F1 is a lab x poodle. First generation labradoodle.

Yes, an F1b is F1 x poodle. This is done to get a "better" coat, more likely to be fleece and non-shedding. F1b is also sometimes called F2, since it is kinda a second generation labradoodle. Breeding back to poodle is allowed in higher generations too. F1 x F1 is also an F2, but the coats in that breeding are much more variable, so most breeders breed an F1 back to poodle and not to another F1.

And F1b x F1b is an F3, since F1b is a 2nd generation, when you breed two second generations together you go up one generation in the offspring, so they are F3.

[tuffystar]

Wow! Todd I am learning so much here. I think we ought to have a section just for definitions like this. Thanks dlchem for posting this and thanks Todd for answering it so clearly.

[MaxandMe]

IF you do a search the button towards top of this page there is quite a few posts on this topic in the past
tomorrow when i am off i'll try to remember to do a search as well and post what i find

for now Todd gave a great simple to the point explantion

seriously, search all different words on this site as there are 4yrs+ of topics, posts etc

[Jac]

Hi, welcome!
Todd gave you really good information...and he is correct. I might add that the generation goes up one level from the LOWEST generation...so if you breed a multigen to an F1B, you still get F3 puppies. The 'B' stands for backcross to a parent breed and while that could mean a Lab backcross, it is not recommended, since the purpose of breeding a Poodle to a Lab is to improve the coat quality and breeding back to a Lab is generally not a consideration.
Since Doodles are not "recognized" as a breed by those organizations you searched, it is not surprising that you were unable to find your answers.
The grading scheme has changed again...but most breeders use the F1 descriptions...however, for the "official" Labradoodle generation listings you can go to ALAA, an official Labradoodle organization, and find more: http://www.ilainc.com/OwnerFAQ.html#_What_is_F1

[dhclem]

Thanks for all the replies. I finally did find the official definition on the ALAA website.

Be leery of a labradoodle breeder in Arkansas who is selling puppies and claiming they are F1B. I did several weeks of research prior to purchasing to understand the types of breeds, F1, F1B, multigen, mini, etc and the pros and cons of each. I went into the deal to purchase what I believed to be a true F1B. Once we finally got all the pedigree paperwork, after we got the puppy of course, we discovered that our puppy is a product of F1B x F1B. When I brought this to the breeder’s attention, I was lashed at with all sorts of Bible quotes, and saying that I am a sick and bad person, etc, etc. I even pointed the breeder to several links I found, including the ALAA, that explicitly states the definition of an F1B and a multigen. This was followed by more lashing on me, more Bible quotes, and that I was wrong, didn’t know what I was talking about, that they had been breeding longer than my resources, that they wish they had never sold me the puppy, that they wish I would sell it to a better home, etc, etc.

I never once stated that I wanted a partial or full refund. I never once stated that I was unhappy with the puppy. In fact, we love the puppy and I think we lucked out and still received a quality bred one. But according to the breeder, I am doomed to hell and will receive my punishment on judgment day.

Sorry if this turned into a mild vent, but if nothing else it can serve as a lesson to others who are researching. Make sure the breeder from which you intend to purchase has the same definition as you.

[sheamusmom]

Sorry you had to experience the "wrath" of an unethical/ unprofessional breeder. Unfortunately there are plenty of them out there. I suspect the intensity of their venom may be related to the lack of proper professional testing/ breeding they provide.
Those of us with puppy mill or back yard breeder dogs, while we love our kids, are also very aware that there is lots of unseen "baggage" that accompanies our dogs, from problems with lack of good socialization, to genetic health problems that were probably passed down to our dogs. We have to prepare ourselves to address these breeding problems when they surface, via behaviorists or veterinarians etc. I'm currently applying for health insurance for Seamus while he is still young and presumably healthy.
There are lots of really great, professional doodle breeders, many who are right here on our forum. There is a good piece on picking the proper breeder, that all should read before purchasing their pup.
We are glad you are here, and as you may discover, we don't lack opinions. Our concern for each other is genuine. Welcome.
Liz

[Raleighsmom]

Sheesh!!!! Welcome to the forum! And vent away whenever you want...we're all here for support...I'm so sorry you had such a bad and very strange experience with that breeder!!! But I'm also happy you love your new puppy and have fallen in love with him!!! How about sharing some pics with us...we all love puppy pictures!!! Oh yeah...have you named him/her yet??

[fudgepuddle]

Originally Posted by dhclem

Thanks for all the replies. I finally did find the official definition on the ALAA website.

Be leery of a labradoodle breeder in Arkansas who is selling puppies and claiming they are F1B. I did several weeks of research prior to purchasing to understand the types of breeds, F1, F1B, multigen, mini, etc and the pros and cons of each. I went into the deal to purchase what I believed to be a true F1B. Once we finally got all the pedigree paperwork, after we got the puppy of course, we discovered that our puppy is a product of F1B x F1B. When I brought this to the breeder’s attention, I was lashed at with all sorts of Bible quotes, and saying that I am a sick and bad person, etc, etc. I even pointed the breeder to several links I found, including the ALAA, that explicitly states the definition of an F1B and a multigen. This was followed by more lashing on me, more Bible quotes, and that I was wrong, didn’t know what I was talking about, that they had been breeding longer than my resources, that they wish they had never sold me the puppy, that they wish I would sell it to a better home, etc, etc.

I never once stated that I wanted a partial or full refund. I never once stated that I was unhappy with the puppy. In fact, we love the puppy and I think we lucked out and still received a quality bred one. But according to the breeder, I am doomed to hell and will receive my punishment on judgment day.

Sorry if this turned into a mild vent, but if nothing else it can serve as a lesson to others who are researching. Make sure the breeder from which you intend to purchase has the same definition as you.

Oh dear, what a terrible experience for you at what should be such a joyful time

[Jac]

Wow...that is not a good experience!

Just wanted to reassure you that F1B to F1B is a good breeding plan...this is the generation I will focus on, for the most part. )

Looking forward to your pictures.

[dhclem]

Thanks again for the responses and the support. I didn’t post here to name names, point a finger and bash an individual. That’s not what I am about or else I would be giving specific information of the breeder like name, address, etc. On the upside, the breeder has a long standing with a reputable kennel club and has mostly been breeding labs for years. I did find that out in my research. So I am fairly confident we got a quality puppy.

I am not a breeder, nor do I plan to breed our puppy. I am just an average husband/father, with two kids, that needed a dog to fit the average household model We first attempted to get a rescue dog from the shelter, thinking it would be a moral thing to do. I am not trying to discourage anyone from getting a rescue dog but for our case, we decided it was not the best thing after it broke into the guinea pig cage and ate the bottom half of the guinea pig! Needless to say, that dog went back to the shelter.

I finally did get some pics of the puppy. I have come to find out that it is more difficult than I would have thought to take pictures of an active puppy! She is 12 weeks old. We got the puppy a couple of weeks after we purchased the DVD (and the kids watched 1000 times) Beverly Hills Chihuahua. So naturally dad was out voted and the puppy’s name is Chloe. She is really smart and I have already been working with her in terms of walking on a leash as well as basic commands like come, sit & stay. And she is almost completely house-trained!





With ball to give reference of size.

[Jac]

Well, little Chloe is a sweetheart! She looks JUST like a puppy from my last litter! Really...they could be the same dog...smart and sweet!
So, obviously, Chloe has a fan already!
I didn't get the impression that you were trying to name names or to cause trouble for anyone...but I am glad that you made that decision intentionally (not to cause problems regarding a breeder)...I like your style.

[MaxandMe]

WHAT A cutie pie!!!! wow Chloe looks sooooo sweet! love her color down her back too

congrats.............and I too like how you handled the situation, thanks

[cocoandjane]

Sorry you were so bashed by the breeder!!
I don't understand why people have to get so weird.

Love Chloe! She is so pretty!!
Welcome to the forum!
This is a fun place to visit...vent...rejoice...and share ideas and answers to problems.
It is best not to name names....and I, too, appreciate your sensitivity to that.
Private Messages to an individual on the forum can sometimes provide more
info...if needed.
Glad you love your puppy !
We do, too!

[M&Tdoodles]

The photos of chloe are cute. Do you have any updated photos? Is she getting curlier? Just wondering about the coat. Her fur looks super straight. We just had a litter of F1b x F1b & even though they are only 5 daysold they appear super wavy already.

Kelsey was a cute pup and dint have much wave as a pup but then evolved with each passing month as her hair grew she became wavier and curlier in different parts of her body. Kelsey is an F1 labradoodle. Thats what makes the breed spectacular, becoming excited when they evolve into a ball of curls , waves , and then learning how to groom them.

Just wondering if you had more photos of your adorable "Chloe" ....love that name also...